Balzy

Hey I've been reading thru this thread and switched over to the incite build but still only pushing out 4-5k dps depending on the fight in 25 man toc I know my gear isn't the greatest but still decent if omeo e can check out my toon to see wht I am doing wrong or if the have a few good macros I can test out, I am also wondering how the armor pen vs strength relates to DMG any pointers would be appreciated . Balzy Trollbane

 

Rozardo

Hi Balzy, just checked out your armory. First thing I can tell you is that expertise is not as important for arms as it is for fury, though I'm guessing the expertise stuff is there because of your other spec being fury. In regards to armor pen vs. strength, it's hands down armor penetration that is better for arms & your ArP% certainly seems a bit low. If you think that you'll be a full-time arms warrior for raiding purposes, I'd advise you replace your gems with ArP gems immediately. I see 2 places with X+10hit gems, so you could just enchant 20 hit on your gloves to make up for being under the cap, or always request to have a Draenei in your group. Replacing your non-ArP gems with ArP will be a 160 ArP improvement. Also, change the enchant on your cloak to 22 agi.

The next move I'd advise you make is regarding your Emblem of Triumph usage... I'd replace your ranged weapon with Crimson Star or replace your Band of Violent Temperment with the Dexterous Brightstone Ring. If you have access to some pants with ArP & a different trinket you could use over Pyrite Infuser, I'd recommend going for the T9 helm. Another piece of gear I'd recommend replacing is your Mirror of Truth. Your crit% is very high so you could certainly make some sacrifice there. Farm normal ToC5 for the Banner of Victory.

The final thing I'd advise is to resist the urge to go for every socket bonus. Certainly it'll be worth it in some spots, but most of the time for arms it won't be. I'd be glad to take a look at one of your parses sometime if you've got one to look further into where you can make improvements. Hope that helps

 

Ablimoth

It's difficult to examine the difference as it's obvious you recieved a new weapon/gear upgrades at around the same time as you switched to the Incite build (average weapon damage increased by about 400/swing), so that changes things slightly.

Looking at Northrend Beasts only across three parses (minimal damage multipliers: 21/10, 6/10, 21/9) I will say that your proportion of Heroic Strike:White hits is higher, nothing else is conclusive and the ratio change could be explained by a new weapon.

 

Baycon

Which is why I wasn't trying to show the difference as much as I was trying to share a parse of a warrior with an incite build. Obviously the increase of damage is directly related to the several upgrades I've gotten. It's hard for me to show parses with the "classic" build vs Incite with this gear, since we're still doing progression (we only raid 3 nights a week)

 

OBIXCX

Gents,

I come here looking for answers... I have read many pages about arms DPS, Rotations and specs, I have played with the spreadsheets and used RAWW! to little effect.

My DPS is in the toilet. I start out on 25M TOC REG at around 4.5 and slowly decrease to around 3.XX, my Rotation is, I believe fine. I started out as gemmed for strength and recently regemmed for ARP after getting grim toll some time ago.

My armory link is HERE

Is it a gear issue? should I go back to strength gems? I am just looking for pointers of what is going on. My expertise is way low and im looking at that but to compensate I am rear attacks.

Thank you

 

Baycon

You should always attack the boss from behind regardless. (There's a much higher parry chance than the 6.50% expertise/dodge cap you usually reach as melee).

From what I'm seeing, you definitely should not only be doing 3 to 4.5k dps. Are you receiving all the melee buffs available (I.E : Is your raid super caster heavy with no melee buffs?) If not, it might be your "rotation".

 

OBIXCX

Yes, I get all melee buffs as well as buffing myself with food and endless rage flasks, as for my rotation

Rend, MS, Slam overpower when procs and execute when I can spare the rage & Blade storm on single bosses. I'm a key presser not a clicker .

Its pretty frustrating to be in this position.

Thanks!

 

Ablimoth

@Baycon Ah, I misinterpreted your statements. I thought you were claiming that the Incite build was superior, so I asked for data, then critiqued it for being incomplete. I'm not sold on the Incite build but it should math out at:

+15% crit on Heroic Strike/Cleave vs. + 15 Rage worth of damage/Execute

Am I incorrect? I don't have the time to do the math now, but will soon.

 

djfuma

For starters you have way to much hit, you should be at around 264 hit rating, your spec is wrong you should be 55-8-8
you need more expertise, you dont need a bunch as arms but you do need at least 5.5%, your also using a armor penetration trinket so your arp rating should be around 38% with a grim troll trinket, you need to gem strength

 

Ran Newman

Sorry for moving the question cross-thread like that, I understood too late i posted it in the wrong place.

1. I actually have the adds up all the time - maybe it's diffrent startegy or just lack of dps on our side. We are always doing only as much dps as to keep 1 group of adds up (killing two before the next 2 are moving in). Normaly we kill the first group-> dps the boss before the first borrow-> killing the second group during the borrow-> killing the third group just before the 4't coming in-> DPS'ing both adds and boss to get him to phase 3 before the next borrow. by that stage we always have at least 2 up, if we have more then we trying to move the "main nuke" from the boss to the adds fast enough.
Saying that, i am preaty sure that even if the adds are not up all the time expertise will increase it's value alot - each cleave having a chance to be dodged, without triggering overpower.

2. I realy don't like the idea of throwing MS out of the rotation for the first 80%. It's true it's cost alot of rage, but so does slam (including the 0.5 seconds casting time) which also deals much less damage. However what you are saying about the 20% phase is very true, on Anub it actualy a long phase (for us at least) - but there is more to it then that, considering we want to get him down before the second borrow, the first 80% are actualy somthing of big deal (we normaly have to blow heroism some 15-10 seconds before the second borrow to get that in time) and MS glyph is huge dps increase there. I think it's somthing i will have to test, thanks.

 

Baycon

There's also the reduction in cost for HS (12 rage or x% chance of it costing only 2 rage) where "x" is your crit chance + 15% + 5 % (with 4p T9). Obviously there's the rage lost in theory, since HS is on-next-hit.

And then you must consider the possible increase in deep wounds damage, since one attack in two (roughly) now has a good 20% extra crit chance.

 

Anduryondon

Actually this is not true. I know there are different opinions about having high Expertise Rating as Arms, but at least according to the Spreadsheet you dont need 5.5%, so please dont state this as a fact to that everyone agrees.

 

Krumsha

Hi people. I've 2 question:

First one: My DPS as Arms Dropped out a Lot from around 4,5 k to 3,9 and I don't know how. I have good stuff and I'm trying to stack as much Arp as Possible because I don't Mjolnir or Grim Troll. So,How I have to Gem?

Second Question: I'd like to try the Incite Build,but i can't figure out the right rotation. I have to insert the Thunder Clap I think,but Cleave too? And use a lot of HS?

 

Kentrish

The first thing that comes to my mind for your drop in dps would be that ArP was recently nerfed (used to take 12.316 to get 1% penetration however it was increased to 13.996 rating). As it is you do not have enough ArP to make gemming for it worthwhile (unless you get a mjolnir or grim toll) your best off switching to strength. I too am expirmenting with incite though my knowledge of the rotation is very limited. From my (this is either very rough and probably flawed) understanding you keep the same prorities as arms though you reduce the usage significantly (mainly only use it when single target dpsing). I think the only time it is beneficial to use thunderclap is when there are a large amount of adds (I would estimate 6+).

 

Krumsha

I've counted already the ArP Nerf. I've started Gemming ArP when i've reached the 30% Armor Red from Gear. Or am I Wrong? This is the only doubt I could have.

 

Slambot

I have no problem at all as arms dps keeping a constant 4.8k dps on some fights. Im at 41.57% ArP, 4738 self-buffed AP. 31.97%crit. and too much hit. Oh, also theres a comment about hit up there. The cap is 296. Not 274 or whatever he said. Expertese cap is 26. (including your talent). As for the incite build? Prob better for everything but TOC.

 

Jambo354

263.

 

Baycon

Slambot : It would be nice if you didn't spread misinformation like that

Hit needed is 8%, which is 263 (262 = 7.99% 263 = 8.02%).

Expertise needed as a DPS (Since you're only trying to push dodge off of the table) is 6.50% which is 26 expertise or 214 expertise rating.

 

BWarner

However, given that this is the Arms discussion, is is debatable whether Expertise is "needed" or not. Obviously, it's good to have, but it's not necessarily our absolute best stat pre-cap.

 

Orchestra

Hey im sitting at 79% arp with the 2peice bonus without an ARP proc trinket and was wondering if bringing back execute for its 120arp proc would be more viable to get closer to the 100% than a 400ap proc from berserking.

Also wondering whether the 45arp elixer would be better off than the endless rage flask..

 

Bokeh

I have found expertise to not be so much "needed" but on certain fights where burst dps is required missing an important attack can be extremely frustrating. However realistically - if you want to go for all the juicy ArP gear - there is no way to get expertise capped. Currently i am running at 4% base plus 1% dodge from weapon mastery, which tends to be enough for most fights. I wouldn't go any lower than that though and risk getting a rend refresh dodged.


Looking at rawr, at such values executioner approaches the dps values that berserking gives, but never seems to be better. Before the ArP-nerf i was running with executioner, but these days it does not seem to be worth it anymore. The difference is really small though, at my current level of ArP (90% passive with 2pc T9).

The same goes for the ArP elixir. Though is it extremely good, even if it exactly caps you at 100% passive it will never beat a flask of endless rage. It's still worth using on farm content though.

Keep in mind, with an incite spec my highest damaging ability seems to be deep wounds on quite a number of fights, and as such i personally feel lvl80 AP enchants are better than lvl70 ArP enchants.

Personally i believe that 55/8/8 is better than 54/17/0 or 56/15/0. This is dependant on your usual raid setup obviously, but if a paladin with improved might is present, there is hardly any reason to use improved battleshout anymore. Our fury warrior is specced into 5/5 commanding for commanding shout.

So the tradeoff purely from a talent point of view is:

- improved shouts.
- 5 less rage on your executes OR 1% extra expertise

versus

- 15% more crit on heroic strike.
- 15% more crit on cleave
- 15% more crit, 30% more damage and 10% more slowing on thunderclap (don't be mistaken, while situational thunderclap can be amazing aoe, and if there is no warrior tank present it is also effective in applying the melee attack speed debuff on all targets. A thunderclap critical will also apply the 4% physical damage debuff on the target which can come in handy if there is no combat rogue present.
- 50% more rage generated on bloodrage. While it's minimal, it can come in very handy in case you mess up your rotation or accidentially starve yourself by overdoing heroic strikes/cleaves. 50% more rage on bloodrage effectively means that even if you run yourself dry completely it always allows you to do a mortal strike instantly.

Personally, i cannot see why anyone would want to not run 55/8/8. Unless you are running in naxx10/25 gear and there is no paladin present but you are running a physical heavy team, there are just hardly any advantages to the 54/17 spec.

 

hellord

Expertise is simply not worth as much as our primary dps stats. There is not a real need for being expertise capped, and sometimes there is not even a real need to be hit capped. It is mostly a personal choice since with a low sample of hits even a very small number of chances can have a bigger impact, but on average there will be a lot of fights where you won't miss at all even with a slight chance to. Expertise is in the same position but it also work against your chance to proc another OP.

The example with rend is probably one of the best, since you lose 1 gcd of rend damage but you istantly proc an Overpower, and you have high chances that it won't overwrite a tfb proc (especially when prioritize OP and don't go for a 100% rend uptime). Rend strength per GCD is also due to its ability to proc T4B so having a dodge on rend is probably a dps increase. For every GCD we lose we can surely say that we lose at least a slam damage, so we can estimate the loss of a rend as: rend*21/22.5 + slam - OP and it is generally negative or very close to 0.
White dodges can also be an increase in dps since you generally replace next slam with an OP, the only exception is if it overwrites T4B. Execute and MS are always a loss but still not the entire loss that you would have without the additional OP. It is however important to use your T4B procs asap to minimize chances of overwrite.
Multitarget fights value expertise more since the additional target's dodges won't give you an OP on the main target, but if you are fast at swapping target you still can use it.

So after all when you have to choose an upgrade, expertise is not a great stat, in the sense that every point will increase your damage by a much smaller value than str, crit or arp for single target fights. Anyway there is not a "needed" value of exp. I personally ran with 3% chance to get dodges and still had very good results on a 2 target fight.

ArP Whore

 

Ablimoth

Of course, but how do we measure the reduction in HS cost? Would it be 2 + 10 * (1-crit%) as near as I can estimate that's the best way.

Deep Wounds is very easy to model, it's 0.48*weapon damage added for each crit, don't forget the reduced glancing hits as well.

What I meant though, was how to model the increased frequency of Heroic Strike, since the direct cost (but not the opportunity cost) of rage is reduced. That's the question that is giving me issue. Any suggestions (or can someone tell me how Landsoul does it in his spreadsheet?

As I understand the working effect of the glyph the Heroic Strike costs 2 Rage if it crits and 12 if it doesn't? Or does it return 10 rage at a future point in time?

 

Ablimoth

I feel the need to swing in here re: the expertise debate.

While it is not a great stat for Arms Warriors, it is far from something to be avoided. Best case scenario for a dodge is that we lose a Slam costing the following:

damage of the slam (dodged) + damage of the slam (replaced by OP) - damage of the overpower

Worst case is that we lose a Sudden Death proc as the Sudden Death buff is overwritten with another costing the following:

damage of the Execute + damage of the slam (replaced by OP) - damage of the overpower

None of those equations end up with positive damage coming from a dodge, thus Expertise is a good stat for us. Where it stands depends on the rest of your gear. Use the spreadsheet to determine what is an upgrade, don't neglect an item simply because it has Expertise.

 

hellord

Missing a slam and in general a GCD is not at all the "best case scenario" and also you don't factor in the reduced GCD time of OP that is a huge dps increase.
Your assumption is that since expertise provides a dps increase overall is a "good" stat, but this is like saying that any stat that provides a dps increase is good. What's important is the trade off, you can't just take few examples where you see a loss without considering the compensations you have when you even get a dps increase (swings, slam and rend) or when there is no difference at all (OP by itself can't be dodged/parried in any case).

With napkin math you can easily realize that you spend:
- 1/16 of your GCD time on Rend
- 1/6 of your GCD time on OP
- 1/4 of your GCD time on MS
- about 1/2 of your GCD time on execute and slam

It also has a low impact on deep wounds since you replace a "normal" damage ability with a nearly granted crit. Slam damage also accounts for a loss of white dps that further reduce it's damage per GCD. Losing a white swing is more than compensated by the difference between OP damage vs slam whenever you don't have a t4b overwrite.
All these factors cut in half the value of expertise on single target dps, while heavy usage of HS/Cleave and in general multitarget fights will raise it up slightly. Another thing that will increase Exp value is 4pc T10 since it will increase by much the strength per GCD of Execute procs.

ArP Whore