Jakoemanou

After we had around 80 attempts on Twin Val'kyr we finally downed them last sunday.

I have been trying some other spec 51/13/7 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft but i'm not really sure if this is actually better then the standard 55/8/8. What do you think about this and have you ever tried it?

2nd in order to play this fight better then the 10.4k i did now, i have been looking at WoL from Negiva and Hellorco where i find out they do around 2k till 3k more dps then me.

I cant see myself doing things much different then you, but 1 thing thats is very different is your dmg done on Eydis Darkbane while beeing dark buffed.

The only time we are switching is on Black shields, but are you actually changing targets or do you stay dpsing Fjola Lightbane and solo cleave/ww/ss dmg on the black shield?

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis our WoL
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis Hellorco
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis Negiva

 

hellord

We simply ignore black shield if it happens at start since we run with 1 tank, 2 soakers and everyone black buffed, using saves on light vortex and using bloodlust on black shield or after last special.
It's a quite luck based strat, but optimizes the dps on the target without having to swap color. The downside is that is really unusual to have multiple Empowered buffs.
My parse and Negiva's one are quite different, but I think we used the same strat. However I was quite lucky to have Empowered Darkness during execute phase otherwise I wouldn't get so high.

ArP Whore

 

rainerx

It might depend on your strat. I know our guilds current H Twin Valk strat last kill I got empowered buff twice and we use 4 soakers in the mid. I have seen a few WoL of guilds that use the door strat and it seems like they do less dps over all.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

I queue up cleave instead of HS, and I have my sweeping strikes on rotation whenever the special ability is up. I also try to use my Bladestorm early and I never use it during the shields. I have execution glyph for this fight as well.

 

Murderizer

Well, another thing to maybe consider is fight length. Your kill was a bit longer (30 secs to a minute) than the ones you are comparing to. Though the 2 empowered lights you got might help in that respect.

Last week we had a kill just over 4 minutes and I put up 13k dps with zero empowered light/darkness. We use the door strat, and nearly all died at the last light vortex...gotta love having a total RNG strat.

 

Brekkie

Our guild (Negiva's) doesn't use the door strat, we do the non-gimmick strat where the raid actually stands in the room and dodges/absorbs orbs as intended.
Additonally, all our melee, negiva included, are light attuned in our strategy, and DPSing the dark boss, and thus our empowers are 5 seconds shorter.

 

Jakoemanou

You use the opposite from our tatic where we are blackbuffed and dps light boss, we got 4 light soakers and 2 black.
We are switching boss but not color on the opposite shield.

When i looked at Negiva´s WoL he did:
86,7% on Darkbane and only 13,3% on Lightbane
While i did 67,2% on Lightbane and 32,8% dps on Darkbane.

This can be becouse we got 2 black shields and we only 1.

But then http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=5403&e=5628 not a single overpower or MS(arms warrior only abilities) hit Lightbane.

This is why i asked the question if he didn´t change target on the opposite shield but instead used SS/Cleave/Bladestorm

 

Healranktwo

whoa, discussion about how i'm a bad raider! UH OH

But nah, to answer your question Jakoemanou, I do swap on shields. Sweeping strikes used to transfer the full amount of damage you did on one twin to the other if you were the opposite color, but at some point they hotfixed it (I think patch 3.2.2 did it), so now sweeping strikes hits the other for reduced damage if you are her color.

I'm not sure what you mean by my damage on Lightbane was low. Wouldn't that be natural since i'm mainly attacking Darkbane? We had one shield on her I had to swap for, this is the log for the 8 seconds~ or so it was up.

[19:34:51.923] Fjola Lightbane's Deep Wounds fades
[19:34:52.266] Fjola Lightbane afflicted by Trauma from Negiva
[19:34:52.266] Fjola Lightbane afflicted by Deep Wounds from Negiva
[19:34:53.359] Negiva Deep Wounds Fjola Lightbane Absorb
[19:34:54.359] Negiva Deep Wounds Fjola Lightbane Absorb
[19:34:55.015] Negiva casts Rend on Fjola Lightbane
[19:34:55.158] Fjola Lightbane afflicted by Rend from Negiva
[19:34:55.328] Negiva Deep Wounds Fjola Lightbane Absorb
[19:34:55.579] Negiva casts Heroic Strike on Fjola Lightbane
[19:34:55.937] Negiva Heroic Strike Fjola Lightbane Absorb
[19:34:56.254] Negiva Deep Wounds Fjola Lightbane Absorb
[19:34:56.693] Fjola Lightbane's Trauma is refreshed by Negiva
[19:34:56.693] Fjola Lightbane's Deep Wounds is refreshed by Negiva
[19:34:57.053] Negiva casts Mortal Strike on Fjola Lightbane
[19:34:57.187] Negiva Mortal Strike Fjola Lightbane Absorb
[19:34:57.581] Negiva casts Cleave on Fjola Lightbane
[19:34:57.792] Negiva Deep Wounds Fjola Lightbane Absorb
[19:34:57.901] Fjola Lightbane's Trauma is refreshed by Negiva
[19:34:57.901] Fjola Lightbane's Deep Wounds is refreshed by Negiva
[19:34:57.958] Negiva Cleave Fjola Lightbane Absorb
[19:34:58.189] Negiva Rend Fjola Lightbane Absorb
[19:34:58.750] Negiva Execute Fjola Lightbane Absorb
[19:34:59.000] Negiva Deep Wounds Fjola Lightbane 385


From what I can tell reading your log, you seemed to waste a little too much time sitting on Darkbane after her shield has already gone down, and towards the end, you swapped colors and stayed on her full time (even getting an Empowered Light buff). That would probably explain why your DPS on the other twin was a lot higher than most people. I notice you sundering Darkbane too, which is probably not a good idea since most of your melee (including you) were staying on Lightbane most of the time to begin with and on a fight like that where every GCD is exemplified due to the damage buff, sundering the other for cleaves is not worth it and is actually a DPS loss overall. Sunders fell a couple of times too and you had to reapply them which is a further loss.

I have no idea how you guys do twins so I won't comment on that, but the only times I would ever swap to the other twin in our strat would be if she had a shield up, or if I got the empowered buff that increased damage dealt to her due to the timing of vortexes. Even then, I would swap back to light right after it ended.

 

Jakoemanou

We are tanking the twins next to a light portal so we can swap fast on light vortex, during a light vortex i got Empowered Light so instead of running the long way towards a dark portal i dpsed Darkbane for that duration.

I used for this fight a Sunder Glyph so both are sundered to improve my Cleave/SS/BS dmg on the other twin. I think this is worth it since we run often with alot of melee.

Sunders falling off and dpsing Darkbane to long is pure failure on my side.

 

Healranktwo

I figured you were using the sunder glyph, just didn't know for sure.

Having sunder duty (and subsequently letting it fall off so many times) probably was the main reason for the difference in our DPS. It did seem like you were attacking Darkbane several times without having empower though, so idk if you were just doing it to prep for shields or something. Either way, it was your first kill too, so there's room for improvement in that regard.

 

Pirie

My guild is on Anub Heroic, and we're having mixed success with downing the adds on time. I'm assuming most arms warriors are using Glyph of Cleaving for this fight, but i'm unsure if I should be cleaving at the expense of my other skills (namely slam). Seems like using slam and pushing back the swing timer would be detrimental to cleave spam... also is getting extra cleaves worth missing an execute or pushing back a mortal strike due to rage limitations?

 

rainerx

You should still be using your Slams. You should be replacing your Heroic strikes with your Cleaves if your rage is high enough to sustain the spam.

 

manikrajora@yahoo.com

Hey guys i was wondering if i could get a little advice. Right now im using 2 t9 pc in arms with the incite spec. I was wondering if the 4 set t9 bonus is worth getting because i do have mjolnir runestone but right now im trying to get passive arp cap, because from what i have heard and read 100% arp 100% of the time is better than 100% arp 30% of the time. Thats the link to my armory.
The World of Warcraft Armory

My other concern was that im only pushing 5.5k dps on htoc 25 beasts using the incite spec. THe way i use hs is whenever i have +70 rage i queue it up with my next attack. IF you guys have any different rotation than mine it would be really helpful

 

Hexadril

Massive flaw discovered in my thoughts.

Deleted.

 

Aw4

You forget about the +5% on crit-damage!
That's the major reason, why Axe-Spec is that superior, when you compare 2 equal Weapons.

 

Hexadril

You are correct!

Makes the whole thing a waste of space.

 

Puresp

I have a quick question. I have a piece of gear that's just decent, but has hit. And another piece which is a lot better, but gets me under the hit cap. However, when under the hit cap, I'm at 7.9%, should I go for the hit capped item over the stronger item? Or is .1% not that big of a deal?

 

Anduryondon

Remember that you can just socket hit. But at 0,1% miss not even that is worth it (maybe 10hit/10str). So go for the better item.

 

diag

I tried to time Bladestorm with Grim Toll proc after reading this post, BS CD matches perfectly with GT, making it very easy to do. Should I use BS with GT even in execute range? It seems that execute's base damage scales better with Arp, and BS scales better with Ap/Str proc.

 

hellord

Bladestorm and exe scales at the same rate with arp, is just exe that doesn't scale with weapon damage and scales slower on AP.
During execute phase you only use your GCDs for rend, op and exe. Since you can fit a bladestorm without clipping any t4b you can directly compare BS to 4 Executes (@ 0 latency however).
Bladestorm is 7 weapon damage over 6s. With 50% crit the 4 executes should deal 1.75 times more than average weapon damage. However both BS and execute gets same multipliers so we can directly compare the execute damage vs different weapon damages.

A 30 rage execute glyphed and talented does 2596 + 0.2AP

A normalized weapon damage does:
200dps 3.4s: (680 + 0.236AP)*1.75 = 1190 + 0.413AP (BS>4xExe @6601AP)
200dps 3.6s: (720 + 0.257AP)*1.75 = 1260 + 0.45AP (BS>4xExe @5344AP)
232dps 3.4s: (789 + 0.236AP)*1.75 = 1381 + 0.413AP (BS>4xExe @5704AP)
232dps 3.6s: (835 + 0.257AP)*1.75 = 1461 + 0.45AP (BS>4xExe @4540AP)
255dps 3.6s: (918 + 0.257AP)*1.75 = 1607 + 0.45AP (BS>4xExe @3956AP)

In general in a raid setting bladestorm beats 4xEXE since the early tiers (at least after execute change). The damage difference is not incerdibly higher but scales much faster than exe, about twice as much on AP. Latency is another factor that skews the result in favor of BS, and also is deep wounds. Lack of expertise slightly skews the result since you could get part of the damage lost with an addition OP on next gcd while bladestorm will surely overwrite it.

Provided you don't lose t4b procs, BS is a dps increase in execute phase in nearly every raid setting after t7 and gets increasingly better.

ArP Whore

 

Healranktwo

So, pardon my ignorance, but this has sort of been in the back of my head yet I have never really wanted to ask, just blindly following the spreadsheet. I checked up the hit table today for some clarification on another matter and realized something. Maybe i'm missing something else now.

Why is expertise ignored, whereas hit is considered our best stat pre-cap?


I understand that a dodged attack

1. can be converted into overpower

2. that overpower (taste for blood) itself can't be dodged.

However, I was also always under the assumption that a "crit" can't be dodged, but it can miss, hence making hit important and expertise not so much (I know it's not true now =P), and after realizing today that that was ignorance on my part, I started to wonder why expertise SEP compared to hit is so far off.

The hit table obviously checks for misses first, then dodges. So basically, as far as the value of both is concerned, they are the same, since they come before everything else, right? So we come to the two advantages a dodged attack has over a missed attack, as mentioned above. However, Being at 1.8% under the dodge cap and raiding for about a month with that amount of expertise (I haven't raided the last two weeks due to certain issues), I have come to realize that I don't get to convert 90% of my dodges into overpower due to the nature of taste for blood, and even if overpower can't be dodged, it only makes up about 17%~ of my rotation, less so if I start factoring in cleave and bladestorm hits on multiple mobs.

So let's say in a normal raiding situation, if I ended up with a dodge or two that I didn't manage to convert to overpower because of taste for blood, does that actually make the SEP value of expertise the same as hit for that attempt?

I'm basically asking what conditions the spreadsheet puts dodged attacks on. Does it assume best case scenarios for dodges? If we fail to convert the dodges we get a fight into overpowers, doesn't expertise become just as important as hit then? In that case, can we really consider expertise being "important but not as important as everything else"?

Does the two advantages for dodged attacks over missed attacks really make a difference when you don't usually get to fulfill those conditions anyway most of the time?

If that's the case, expertise might be better than what it's considered now. I really hate playing the RNG game for 30 or so more DPS. I rather lose that amount and have consistency.

 

Jordanthug

I raid with 10 expertise as well (partly by choice, as greaves of the saronite citadel haven't fallen into my hands yet), and to counter that I just prioritize OP higher than "wait until TfB is about to proc again". There might be one attempt out of 20 where I get screwed from dodges and TfB being up at the same time, but I generally do not miss a free overpower due to tfb. My position is if there's expertise on an excellent piece of gear, then grab it, but it's not worth using a subpar piece to cap it.

 

Flaps

I've recently regemmed my gear to full arp and ditched my mjolnir but in order to hit 100% arp I had to drop some of my expertise gems because I always thought like you are now, "I don't want to play the rng game."

So currently I'm running with 9 expertise and I don't plan on picking up any of the plate expertise pieces from TotC (mail ftw -.-), and after raiding with it I must say I was quite amazed at how much I've always overrated expertise but after putting some more thought into it I figured that you get to use your top damage ability more often, gaining 0.5 sec of a global cd and it's an extra global cd you have to fit into your rotation meaning that you'll be pushing some slams out of your rotation gaining yet another 0.5 sec, not to forget about the near 100% crit we're getting at our gearlevels procing another Deep Wounds.

Now I'm not saying that expertise is a bad stat but after doing last weeks raid with my new gems I won't be gemming towards expertise anymore like I used to.
Of course this is what I could come up with so please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Healranktwo

Well, I do prioritize TfB over everything else right now, but I guess my luck isn't there since I don't find myself getting dodges at the right time often enough to utilize a overpower before I gain another.

I won't gem expertise either, I just found it strange that the spreadsheet values hit a lot if it isn't capped, but dodges being in the same category is worth basically next to nothing just because of two conditions, that you might not fulfill most of the time? With my gear now, the spreadsheet states that if i'm 1% below the cap for both, hit is worth 1.6 SEP, my best stat, whereas expertise is only worth 0.42 SEP, even worst than haste which is supposedly arms worst stat? That doesn't sound right to me.

I don't think you can conclude anything from one raid either, because I definitely have had my ups and downs over the past month running 10 expertise. A short fight where you kill the boss in under 2 minutes and you get several dodges? That is annoying, worst so if you failed to convert them to overpowers. Yet sometimes I don't see a dodge either. Isn't it the same as hit in regards to that?

The way I see it right now, let's say you run below the cap for both dodges and hit

hit is basically either

1. You miss and the SEP for hit is indeed worth as much as the spreadsheet says
2. You don't miss at all during the fight due to RNG and hit is overvalued

whereas dodge is exactly the same except for one addition

1. You get dodged and failed to convert said dodges into overpower, making the SEP for dodge lower than it's true worth
2. You don't get dodged at all during the fight due to RNG and dodge is valued right
3. You get dodged but managed to convert some/all of the dodge hits into overpower, making dodge SEP right or undervalued depending on how many you managed to convert.

Now the question is how often does #3 for dodge play out, and does it really play out enough to make the SEP between hit and dodge so far apart as it is in the spreadsheet now? It either means hit is overvalued, or dodged is undervalued, because I don't feel there is a best case scenario in terms of what you want to happen most of the time.

 

Pirie

You're also forgetting part of your original post, expertise doesnt affect overpowers which are a large portion of our attacks.

 

Healranktwo

That is basically what i'm wondering though. Does 17% of a normal arms rotation count as a large enough portion and that you can convert most dodges to overpower enough to create such a huge discrepancy between hit and expertise atm?