Ryo Saeba

You answered it yourself, if a dodge occurs you can always convert it in an Overpower (being it 10, 20, or whatever percentage of your total damage) instead you can't convert a miss in anything, so it's clearly a dps loss.
That's why there's such huge discrepancy between hit and expertise on the spreadsheet.
Missing will result as 0 damage, being dodged will result in another Overpower, simple as that.

 

Healranktwo

Let's go deeper then, shall we?

Correct me if i'm wrong, but the spreadsheet assumes that you maximize TfB uptime. It doesn't make you use your TfB proc straight away regardless of your expertise. If you check the breakdowns with my gear (10 expertise), you see that it states something like using an overpower from a dodge is something like 1% of my breakdown. If we take that to an actual fight, the chances of you converting an overpower from a dodge if you maximize TfB uptime is practically zero.

Now, I can understand it if like you said, it's because dodges are being converted into overpowers, so the spreadsheet assumes all your dodges are. However, with the spreadsheet maximizing TfB uptime and claiming a 1% conversion of dodges into overpower, how can expertise differ from hit that much? I know the value of hit is also increased since overpower can miss, however, what the spreadsheet is saying right now is something along the lines of, regardless of the dodges you get, as long as you convert a small amount of them into overpowers, you make up for all those other dodges. See the flaw in that? At this point, one of three things are true.

1. Overpower is super amazing and you want to run 0 expertise and be dodged since as long as you convert even a small amount of those dodges into overpower, it's a DPS gain.
2. The huge difference in SEP value between hit and expertise is simply from overpower. It's fine if your MS, execute, slams, melee etc all miss, but you never want an overpower to miss, hence why hit is so amazing.
3. Something is calculated wrongly.


Maybe this would be a better question to ask in the spreadsheet thread.

 

Swamplord

The problem with expertise is that it doesn't have a neutral effect on overpower, but a negative effect. You have to sacrifice other stats to cap expertise, which lower overpower damage.

And don't forget you need to add the near 100% chance to proc deep wounds to your overpower damage.

 

Nanaki

Im running with 12 expertise now.
I understand you Negiva, this theory run in my head a lot of times, but as u say, miss CANT be the same that dodge, becouse overpower is the 17~19% of our damage, and it cant be dodged. Other reason is that a small amount of the dodges can be converted into overpowers, if you use the tfb proc, max 3 sec after it start, you have aprox 50% of time without tfb proc, and can convert 30~50% dodges in overpowers.

Srry for my bad english ^^

 

Ares

well the spradshet is as far as i know calcualted from optimal conditions witch means youre behind the target the whole duration of the fight witch isnt always the case, the value of exp will then stat to rise alot, and keeping a steady income of rage and being able to predict your next ability is a nice thing as arms in my opinion.

 

hellord

Dodged/parried whites still produce rage, misses don't. They both produce the same exact result to combat table (except on OP). Supposing at least a 15% OP usage and the possible loss of damage AND rage, hit should be worth at least 1.2-1.4 times expertise depending on the fight. If you also include the chances to get back some damage through OP it's not a surprise that hit is by far better than exp under relative caps.

On a fight where you have to stand in front and get parries, expertise is worth more since it affects both parry and dodge.
SEP values account for possibly every factor, from damage to resources, and including side-effects like OP procs. Anyway if we want to know how much the additional OP devalue expertise compared to hit we should first determine how much the rage from it affects our DPS.

ArP Whore

 

Pirie

Please correct me if anything in here is wrong.

I know that this has been said, but don't undervalue deepwounds as an important part of overpower's DPS. I am sword spec and expertise capped. On a normal night of ToGC, 20-25% of my deepwounds are caused by overpower. Meaning OP contributes another 3-4% of my damage through deepwounds. That means that expertise has no affect on 20-25% of my damage (would probably be 2-3% higher if i was axe spec).

Overpower also has possible contributions to my enrage, blood frenzy, and trauma uptimes, although this is probably negligible.

However, none of this stuff would ever make miss + OP > 2 hits Therefore, exp is still better than no exp.

Also, keep in mind that both hit and exp are worth less the more you have of it:

Going from 92% - 93% hit rate = (93/92 - 1) = 1.087% increase
Going from 99% - 100% hit rate = (100/99 - 1) = 1.010% increase
Going from 99% - 100% non-dodge = (100/99 - 1)*(1 - overpower_contribution) = 0.758-0.81% increase

 

skogstokig

does anyone have apep values for warrior
like for example

Stat Weight
Strength 2.99
Attack Power 1
Critical Strike Rating 1.4
Armor Penetration 1.02
etc
nr are just random picked

 

BWarner

If you feel like getting APEP [Attack Power Equivalency Points] (as opposed to SEP [Strength Equivalency Points], which is the more common measurement for DPS Warriors), take the values you get for SEP in Landsoul's spreadsheet, and divide all of the values by the AP SEP to set everything to APEP. You can also do this in Rawr - pull up the Relative Stat Values [RSV] chart in the Comparisons section, and divide all of the values by, you guessed it, the AP RSV.

However, I heavily caution against using any sort of equivalency points when deciding on gearing choices. They are inherently flawed by a number of different measures. They are fine to use to give one a rough idea of where the stats stand when making very basic comparisons, but due to A) the high level of interactivity between stats, and B) the existence of multiple caps, both hard and soft, using Equivalency Points of any kind can be very misleading if used incorrectly / very freely.

In other words, just be careful when using EP for comparison purposes, especially concerning gear and large numbers of the stats. If you want to maintain any semblance of accuracy with EPs, make sure to update your EP when anything about your character (or rather, your setup on the whole) changes.

The Warrior Formerly Known as Aerowyn.

 

cdestuntman12

Honestly if you grab the belt off of 25ToC belt and boots, then grab the badge thrown weapon then you'll be expertise capped as arms. You don't have to sacrafice gems slots or anything of the sort.

 

Mjollnirstheme

So I've see a little bit about the new talent investment with the emphasis now on HS and Cleave I would like to know what the rotation is looking like now? and the possible glyph association as well. It would be pretty helpful I'm always open to new ideas that make the rotation different and more productive. And since that spec relies on maximum crittage on HS to conserve the rage should we start shifting less focus from ARP to CRIT now?

 

cdestuntman12

Well Arms dps has always been largely dependent on crit, but since ArP came out it became the best stacking stat for most physical dps and especially arms warriors. Now that ArP has been pretty nerfed lately I think I am going to start looking into more crit with more AP while still stacking some ArP. On a side note, if you look at most plate gear with crit it also has tons of ArP as well, so stacking both stats shouldnt be that much of a problem at all.

As for your question about cleave and hs... I think it will be a tad bit more useful for warriors with more gear, but for warriors with lower tiers of gear I think the rage usage will be a deciding factor of whether it's useful or not. So unless they can somehow regulate rage so we can have more room with rotations with any kind of gear, i dont see it being that big, Plus, they haven't regulated since they release of WoW. WTB runic power, energy, or focus.

 

goodolarchie

I'm trying to help out our resident MS, Improved Cleave vs Incite for cleave fights like twins/anub?

 

Pirie

Short answer: Incite appears to be the clear choice here because it helps you even when adds aren't up (through use of heroic strike) and scales based on your damage. To check for your gear, plug your numbers into these rough formula:
InciteBonus = (AvergeDamageFromCharacterScreen + 124)*0.204
ImpCleaveBonus = 148 + (201 * crit%)

For the really long answer: Lets ignore deepwounds, and other kind of proc stuff (which would skew this more in favor of incite). Damage in these formula is your weapon damage + attack power bonus + cleave damage bonus

Normal Cleave = Damage + Damage * crit% * critBonus
With Incite = NormalCleave + Damage * 0.15 * critBonus
With ImpCleave = NormalCleave + ImpDmg + ImpDmg * crit% * critBonus

Assuming you use the meta, impale, and axe spec, critBonus is 1.36 (hit * 2.36 - hit)
InciteBonus = Damage * 0.15 * 1.36 = Damage * 0.204

Improved cleave is a little more complex because it adds straight damage which is modified by armor, damage bonuses, etc. For me, on an average Anub fight, the normal 222 cleave bonus translates to about 124 damage (about 0.559 of the listed damage bonus). Which would mean improved cleave is about (220 * 1.2)*0.559 = 148 more damage per hit.
ImpCleaveBonus = 148 + 148 * crit% * 1.36 = 148 + 201 * crit%

As you can see from the bolded bits, ImpCleave scales based on crit but at an abysmal rate (2.01 damage per 1% crit). Whereas Incite scales based on your weapon damage and attack power. There's pretty much no gear level where ImpCleave will out scale Incite unless you're using a fast 1h or something. Quickest way to check is use the first formula I posted at the start.

 

Kirona

Having low expertise would only be slightly beneficial if the resulting Overpower from the dodged attack does more damage than the attack that was dodged. If not, it is most likely a DPS loss.

And you cannot make up for a missed attack like you can a dodge, there is no ability that procs off a missed attack.

 

Deus_Phasmatis

That's not quite accurate; having lower expertise is only beneficial if the average amount of damage you do with an Overpower is greater than the amount of damage you do on average with the missed attack plus the amount of damage you would have done with the 0.5 seconds of GCD you would have you used on something else.

However, your choice is rarely Expertise against nothing; you trade it for other stats. Capping Expertise may not be the best route, because you'd gain more DPS from other stats (like ArP or Crit) than from the Expertise.

 

Yippiekaiyayer

I am pulling crazy threat does anyone here have issues with threat here? I know this might be a stupid question. If we are using a lot of HS and cleave in rotation we are obviously pulling a lot of threat. I know most of you all might not have this issue but I am here asking for reasons or suggestions why this is happening to me. This really hinders my performance. I mean i have or used to have 51% buffed crit chance. So I am critting a lot. Long ago I've come across a forum speaking of more crit = more threat, yes its obvious. But is that even a reason? I am just tired of being this one guy who is known to pull or able to pull boss away from tanks too at few cases.

 

Jothay

The only thing you can do is *back off*. Stop your rotation and just let white hits go for a little bit, drop it even faster by stopping whites too. However, if this is a consistant then your tanks need to focus more on higher threat abilities rather than simple rotations. Remember, it's not always our fault if the tank can't keep up.

Come see the Rawr Project for all World of Warcraft Classes and Specs!
- Astrylian: Project Coordinator
- Ebs2002: Fury Warrior Dev
- Jothay: Arms Warrior Dev

 

Anduryondon

Well, you can always call for salvation. With that i normally don't have to stop my rotation.

 

Deus_Phasmatis

I have threat problems in 10-mans. The solution is to eat Hands of Salvation like candy. And yell at Rogues/Hunters to MD the tank.

 

Rhune

Okay so, this is the first post I've made in a long time... There is so much info it's a bit daunting so forgive me if I am posting in the wrong place.

I had been Arms for some time with little to no change at 4500 dps until I read more about ArP which I was desperately lacking. Now I have sacrificed some of my higher level items with strength and crit and sometimes hit to replace them with attack power items that have ArP as well as some that have strength and crit but less of it.

My question is simply, at what point does ArP become better than STR? Also, would Executioner ever be better than Berserking? From everything I have read, Berserking has a 45 second internal cool down whereas Executioner doesn't seem to have one at all? Also, I am curious as to the actually Uptime of these two enchants.

Furthermore, I have changed most of my STR Gems to ArP and I am noticing small gains in dps. 500 here 1000 there. It seems that it is very fight specific. With the level of equipment I have I should be doing more DPS and for some reason I'm not. I have a good rotation down and even work HS into my rotation when everything is on cool down and combine it with slam.

Any advice would be great and I would be glad to answer any questions for it. Thanks again for helping me out!

 

BWarner

Just to nip it in the bud: Berserking does not have a 45s ICD. I'm not trying to attack you personally, I'm just curious... You said "from everything that you have read"; where have you heard such misinformation? A PM would be the preferable response.

The Warrior Formerly Known as Aerowyn.

 

cdestuntman12

^ This is win.
After a while I wanted to play around with my spec, and I read about this incite spec and thought I'd give it a try and you can definitely see that incite scales a lot better than imp cleave. Not only does incite come in handy for single target fights, but it's also better than what you'd use the imp cleave spec for, which is for multi targets like twins/anub.


As for the guy a few posts above me with the threat issues... are you pulling off of your tank after the course of the fight or like 20 seconds in? If it's 20 seconds in then obviously don't dps right when the mob is picked up by the tank. If you are pulling off after a while into the fight then maybe you should look into seeing if you can get vigilance (if you have a warrior tank of course), having rogues/hunters ToT/MD respectively, or maybe tell your raid leader that you're threat capped and would like to see a bit more threat from the tanks. You can also do what any bastard likes to do (including me), and that is pulling off the tank and dying till he hopefully gets the picture. Be prepared for heavy repair bills and getting annoyed in ten mans/heroics with that last option.

 

Musclebound

Forgive me if this is all review, but giving your tanks a 3-count before hitting the boss at the start of the fight goes a lot farther than hitting immediately. On some fights, like onyxia, a few warriors in my guild charge in and eat the cleave (or tailswipe + surprise whelps) before she's in position during phase one. I can't think of a really solid example but there are some fights where threat can be a little shaky (I suppose Twins during a vortex when your tank has to switch essences, but then you're busy switching essences as well so probably not).

If you're ruling out everything that you can do to reduce your threat and you're still pulling aggro, your tanks suck and you need to make friends with your paladins and work your way into their salv macros, as stated above. One thing to never, ever do is switch to D stance with the hope that the reduced damage will save you, because it also increases your threat gen and it will most likely never save you anyway.

Nerd Blender engaged!

 

Yippiekaiyayer

Thank you for your all's input. Greatly appreciate it. But its almost surprising sometimes that while many people are already engaged in the combat with boss (i.e, in first 3-5 secs of pull) and then I charge in (which is what I usually do) and somehow between my first mortal strike and white attack my threat just bumps up. I mean, I have seen in several instances in bosss encounters where this happened. So I am wondering, is this something to do with our class?. For people who already responded and gave their valuable suggestions, I am just trying to understand more about what might be the cause. May be it happens once or twice it could be my mistake and i correct it but it happens a lot... chance for something else to be a reason? There are rouges and hunters and even locks destroying boss engaging before me, yet they are safe.