Ryo Saeba

You answered it yourself, if a dodge occurs you can always convert it in an Overpower (being it 10, 20, or whatever percentage of your total damage) instead you can't convert a miss in anything, so it's clearly a dps loss.
That's why there's such huge discrepancy between hit and expertise on the spreadsheet.
Missing will result as 0 damage, being dodged will result in another Overpower, simple as that.

 

Healranktwo

Let's go deeper then, shall we?

Correct me if i'm wrong, but the spreadsheet assumes that you maximize TfB uptime. It doesn't make you use your TfB proc straight away regardless of your expertise. If you check the breakdowns with my gear (10 expertise), you see that it states something like using an overpower from a dodge is something like 1% of my breakdown. If we take that to an actual fight, the chances of you converting an overpower from a dodge if you maximize TfB uptime is practically zero.

Now, I can understand it if like you said, it's because dodges are being converted into overpowers, so the spreadsheet assumes all your dodges are. However, with the spreadsheet maximizing TfB uptime and claiming a 1% conversion of dodges into overpower, how can expertise differ from hit that much? I know the value of hit is also increased since overpower can miss, however, what the spreadsheet is saying right now is something along the lines of, regardless of the dodges you get, as long as you convert a small amount of them into overpowers, you make up for all those other dodges. See the flaw in that? At this point, one of three things are true.

1. Overpower is super amazing and you want to run 0 expertise and be dodged since as long as you convert even a small amount of those dodges into overpower, it's a DPS gain.
2. The huge difference in SEP value between hit and expertise is simply from overpower. It's fine if your MS, execute, slams, melee etc all miss, but you never want an overpower to miss, hence why hit is so amazing.
3. Something is calculated wrongly.


Maybe this would be a better question to ask in the spreadsheet thread.

 

Swamplord

The problem with expertise is that it doesn't have a neutral effect on overpower, but a negative effect. You have to sacrifice other stats to cap expertise, which lower overpower damage.

And don't forget you need to add the near 100% chance to proc deep wounds to your overpower damage.

 

Nanaki

Im running with 12 expertise now.
I understand you Negiva, this theory run in my head a lot of times, but as u say, miss CANT be the same that dodge, becouse overpower is the 17~19% of our damage, and it cant be dodged. Other reason is that a small amount of the dodges can be converted into overpowers, if you use the tfb proc, max 3 sec after it start, you have aprox 50% of time without tfb proc, and can convert 30~50% dodges in overpowers.

Srry for my bad english ^^

 

Ares

well the spradshet is as far as i know calcualted from optimal conditions witch means youre behind the target the whole duration of the fight witch isnt always the case, the value of exp will then stat to rise alot, and keeping a steady income of rage and being able to predict your next ability is a nice thing as arms in my opinion.

 

hellord

Dodged/parried whites still produce rage, misses don't. They both produce the same exact result to combat table (except on OP). Supposing at least a 15% OP usage and the possible loss of damage AND rage, hit should be worth at least 1.2-1.4 times expertise depending on the fight. If you also include the chances to get back some damage through OP it's not a surprise that hit is by far better than exp under relative caps.

On a fight where you have to stand in front and get parries, expertise is worth more since for every 1% exp you avoid both a parry and a dodge every 100, but with glyph of OP you could compensate also every parry, however the cap would be fairly higher.
SEP values account for possibly every factor, from damage lost to resources lost and including side-effects like OP procs. Anyway if we want to know how much the additional OP devalue exp compared to hit we should first determine how much the rage from it affects our DPS.

ArP Whore

 

Pirie

Please correct me if anything in here is wrong.

I know that this has been said, but don't undervalue deepwounds as an important part of overpower's DPS. I am sword spec and expertise capped. On a normal night of ToGC, 20-25% of my deepwounds are caused by overpower. Meaning OP contributes another 3-4% of my damage through deepwounds. That means that expertise has no affect on 20-25% of my damage (would probably be 2-3% higher if i was axe spec).

Overpower also has possible contributions to my enrage, blood frenzy, and trauma uptimes, although this is probably negligible.

However, none of this stuff would ever make miss + OP > 2 hits Therefore, exp is still better than no exp.

Also, keep in mind that both hit and exp are worth less the more you have of it:

Going from 92% - 93% hit rate = (93/92 - 1) = 1.087% increase
Going from 99% - 100% hit rate = (100/99 - 1) = 1.010% increase
Going from 99% - 100% non-dodge = (100/99 - 1)*(1 - overpower_contribution) = 0.758-0.81% increase

 

skogstokig

does anyone have apep values for warrior
like for example

Stat Weight
Strength 2.99
Attack Power 1
Critical Strike Rating 1.4
Armor Penetration 1.02
etc
nr are just random picked

 

BWarner

If you feel like getting APEP [Attack Power Equivalency Points] (as opposed to SEP [Strength Equivalency Points], which is the more common measurement for DPS Warriors), take the values you get for SEP in Landsoul's spreadsheet, and divide all of the values by the AP SEP to set everything to APEP. You can also do this in Rawr - pull up the Relative Stat Values [RSV] chart in the Comparisons section, and divide all of the values by, you guessed it, the AP RSV.

However, I heavily caution against using any sort of equivalency points when deciding on gearing choices. They are inherently flawed by a number of different measures. They are fine to use to give one a rough idea of where the stats stand when making very basic comparisons, but due to A) the high level of interactivity between stats, and B) the existence of multiple caps, both hard and soft, using Equivalency Points of any kind can be very misleading if used incorrectly / very freely.

In other words, just be careful when using EP for comparison purposes, especially concerning gear and large numbers of the stats. If you want to maintain any semblance of accuracy with EPs, make sure to update your EP when anything about your character (or rather, your setup on the whole) changes.

The Warrior Formerly Known as Aerowyn.

 

cdestuntman12

Honestly if you grab the belt off of 25ToC belt and boots, then grab the badge thrown weapon then you'll be expertise capped as arms. You don't have to sacrafice gems slots or anything of the sort.

 

Mjollnirstheme

So I've see a little bit about the new talent investment with the emphasis now on HS and Cleave I would like to know what the rotation is looking like now? and the possible glyph association as well. It would be pretty helpful I'm always open to new ideas that make the rotation different and more productive. And since that spec relies on maximum crittage on HS to conserve the rage should we start shifting less focus from ARP to CRIT now?

 

cdestuntman12

Well Arms dps has always been largely dependent on crit, but since ArP came out it became the best stacking stat for most physical dps and especially arms warriors. Now that ArP has been pretty nerfed lately I think I am going to start looking into more crit with more AP while still stacking some ArP. On a side note, if you look at most plate gear with crit it also has tons of ArP as well, so stacking both stats shouldnt be that much of a problem at all.

As for your question about cleave and hs... I think it will be a tad bit more useful for warriors with more gear, but for warriors with lower tiers of gear I think the rage usage will be a deciding factor of whether it's useful or not. So unless they can somehow regulate rage so we can have more room with rotations with any kind of gear, i dont see it being that big, Plus, they haven't regulated since they release of WoW. WTB runic power, energy, or focus.

 

Tarbork

Question, is the incite build only good if you have the 4 set Tier9 Bonus? Ive been reading through and hadn't really seen anything saying that the 4 set bonus is a must get for an Arms War, is it? Thanks.
My Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory