Kind of summarizing things after reading the past couple pages:
Regardless of rage management, understanding a correct priority list is very crucial when optimizing DPS. Most often as arms you are making 2-3 GCD chain decisions every 1.0 to 1.5 seconds depending on the situation. Understanding the priority list will help you make better GCD chain decisions more quickly and flinch much less often when faced with a difficult decision regarding rage management.
When not in an infinite rage scenario (sometimes also becoming unlucky after using heroic strike) using rage efficiently is very important. For example let's say you just had a white swing and won't get another for 2.7 seconds, only have 30 rage. You have to use 2 GCDs. Instead of following the priority list and hitting MS because it's on cooldown, you will lose much less damage by bumping MS back behind Overpower+Slam and waiting for another white swing.
That being said, you still could make a priority list, but it would also have to include combinations of swingtime left before melee and current rage level.
This sounds like it would be great as an add-on, which pops up an icon on your screen indicating which ability to hit next based on swing timer, current rage, cooldown states, buffs, procs, and other factors. We already have simulation code that mimics the behavior of a perfect rotation, so I'm sure its possible to whip up some LUA code that does something similar. With all of these variables it's probably fairly difficult for the human brain on some fights when there's a lot of other things going on to keep the "rotation" perfect.
This sounds like it would be great as an add-on, which pops up an icon on your screen indicating which ability to hit next based on swing timer, current rage, cooldown states, buffs, procs, and other factors. We already have simulation code that mimics the behavior of a perfect rotation, so I'm sure its possible to whip up some LUA code that does something similar. With all of these variables it's probably fairly difficult for the human brain on some fights when there's a lot of other things going on to keep the "rotation" perfect.
Ovale has code in place to account for the swing timer. I don't believe it currently works, but I think Ovale is a great addon for this goal.
The full source for my current Ovale script can be found here: #788202 - Pastie
The code still contains a lot of ugly default Ovale script settings, and I haven't really modified much else other than the Battle Stance portion.
I'm still contemplating if a thread dedicated to the development of the script would be wise at this point.
Messing around with 4pc t10 now and noticing some weird things.
It's kinda hard to tell what's what since it almost felt like when I had the 2 charge SD proc, anytime I got any sort of SD proc, it would refresh back to two charges as long as I didn't use both charges, that was not the case though since I did eventually get just a single proc that went back to 10 seconds. It really did feel like I was getting way more 2 charge SD procs keeping one of the previous charges from a proc.
Anyway, not so sure about if it works as advertised or not, but there are bugs with it.
If you get a 2 charge SD proc, and get a new 2 charge proc, the GCD portion of it will stay the same as the old SD, meaning it won't have the reduced .5 GCD. It doesn't matter if you still had 2 charges or kept 1 charge, if it refreshes before you use both of them in time, the GCD of SD will still be 1.5 seconds.
This applies too if you had a regular SD and get a 2 charge SD. The reduced GCD will not apply in this situation as well.
So basically, you can't have SD already when you get your 2 charge proc, and you have to use both before a new proc, otherwise you risk losing the reduced GCD on SD.
Would love to hear about more people who tested it tonight. Gonna play with it more.
Last edited by Healranktwo : 01/27/10 at 12:36 AM.
Messing around with 4pc t10 now and noticing some weird things.
It's kinda hard to tell what's what since it almost felt like when I had the 2 charge SD proc, anytime I got any sort of SD proc, it would refresh back to two charges as long as I didn't use both charges, that was not the case though since I did eventually get just a single proc that went back to 10 seconds. It really did feel like I was getting way more 2 charge SD procs keeping one of the previous charges from a proc.
Anyway, not so sure about if it works as advertised or not, but there are bugs with it.
If you get a 2 charge SD proc, and get a new 2 charge proc, the GCD portion of it will stay the same as the old SD, meaning it won't have the reduced .5 GCD. It doesn't matter if you still had 2 charges or kept 1 charge, if it refreshes before you use both of them in time, the GCD of SD will still be 1.5 seconds.
This applies too if you had a regular SD and get a 2 charge SD. The reduced GCD will not apply in this situation as well.
So basically, you can't have SD already when you get your 2 charge proc, and you have to use both before a new proc, otherwise you risk losing the reduced GCD on SD.
Would love to hear about more people who tested it tonight. Gonna play with it more.
I hope this is a bug and not working as intended. Could you someone clarify if this is the same for Fury (it probably is )?
Originally Posted by Shoban
What's the most accurate and customizable swing timer add on?
Playing with the 4pc more, I can confirm that's it indeed bugged if it refreshes before you uses both charges, or have a SD charge when you get the proc.
I'm almost certain as well that there is some sort of mechanic in to prevent lost procs at the start of your 2 proc SD. I.E. if you get a 2 proc SD, you have a (very small?) window in that any SD procs you get during that time will always be a 2 proc. I imagine this is so that you don't lose procs when you get back to back SDs (which happened a lot while I was testing this). I also imagine this may be the cause of the GCD issue.
I was trying to make a log of this but since it won't show stacks, it wouldn't have done much. Beating on the dummy for a good two hours or so (I have too much time =P), whenever I got a 2 charge SD proc, and back to back SDs after that, it would always be a new 2 stack, until a good amount of time had gone by (seems to be if my 2 charge SD fell below 15 seconds?). I had it refresh itself 6 times once with 2 charges back to back. I'm not 100% sure however, since it's tough to test this considering getting back to back SDs, while pretty frequent, isn't frequent enough, especially getting them after a 2 proc SD. Hopefully more people are getting their 4 pc this week and trying it out.
I tested fury too, and I will just post what I found out here.
The fury version is bugged too...but in a good way hehe.
Unlike the arms version, regardless of whether you have a regular blood surge or a 2 proc one, even if you get a new 2 proc one that refreshes either, the GCD will still be 1.0 seconds. So it's working as intended there from what I can tell.
The bug is that - and i'm not 100% sure on what's causing this yet - several times, if I got a regular blood surge proc after getting my 2 proc blood surge, it would still have a 1.0 second GCD. This happened a lot, so I had many regular blood surges with 1.0 second GCD for a short period of time after getting a 2 proc one. It would return to it's normal 1.5 GCD shortly after, but if I got a 2 proc again, it would go back to the same behavior.
It almost makes me think that there is some sort of hidden buff being applied to you when you get a proc with the way the arms and fury version works.
Last edited by Healranktwo : 01/27/10 at 12:57 PM.
What increse rage usege you are talking about? considering you should still use the same amount of MS, OP and rend, the only thing you will drop out for the extra execute is slam - which cost more rage (in terms of rage gained overall).
What increse rage usege you are talking about? considering you should still use the same amount of MS, OP and rend, the only thing you will drop out for the extra execute is slam - which cost more rage (in terms of rage gained overall).
To utilize the 4pt10 you're gonna have SD proc'd EXE as your highest priority (gets a little more complicated for warriors who run with absolutely no expertise in terms of how high the TFB OP proc is compared to a 4pt10 proc). So if you're at 90 rage after a crit melee, and the 2stack SD procs, you'll exe twice and will not HS off the extra rage like you'd usually do with a ms + slam/op or any of the other combinations during the 2 globals. There's alot of other situations why you would use more rage, and end up HSing less, this is just an example.
This behavior has to do with buff behavior. A lesser buff cannot overwrite a stronger one. If you have a 4t10 proc that lasts for 18 seconds, only a new 4t10 proc can overwrite it. The same thing happens with rend. If you have 12000 AP and hysteria active when you apply rend, you cannot overwrite that rend (happens in situational fury rotations) with 9000 AP and no hysteria.
This also could explain the behavior of the fury 1.0s normal slam bug. It could be that a hidden buff (one that does not display in the buff track because it has no tooltip or graphic values assigned to it) is applied to you for 10s which reduces the GCD of all slams until that timer is done. I'm not sure how the Arms bug comes to be with the 1.5s GCD, that seems to be quite odd.
I would test out these effects myself, but unfortunately I don't have or won't have the badges to rent 2 extra set pieces any time soon.
We currently understand that plate dps classes are picking up leather and/or mail items as some of them currently work better for their class/spec. This post is a reminder of what we mentioned at BlizzCon 2009. In Cataclysm, plate items will have Strength on them while mail and leather will have Agility and the difference between these items will be greater than they are now. We don’t want anyone who is investing in certain items right now to be disappointed with them when the changes take effect.
As we have done in previous expansions, we plan to release a patch that updates the game systems shortly before the full expansion content goes live so you will still be experiencing Wrath of the Lich King content with the new stat systems for at least a short period of time. All classes will be changing a lot in Cataclysm and we will announce all of the changes in advance to try and prevent players from being taken by surprise. In the mean time, please make your item selections with both current and future content in mind.
Obviously, people may want to consider their gear plans. While we all knew this was coming for Cataclysm, it's a little disconcerting that the warning comes now, before ICC hard modes have even hit.
Obviously they won't release these changes until 1 month (as they have done before0 before the expansion goes live, which will be months after ICC hard modes are released and taken down.
It's speculative in either direction. You are correct in that Echoes of Doom hit mid-October while WotLK launched mid-November, yet the Devs saw it fit to send a reminder 6 to 9 months in advance of when most are expecting Cataclysm to hit. Is this relevant to WotLK content? It's unclear, but what is clear is that they wanted us to keep this in mind with our current gear investments, to avoid being 'disappointed', as Bornakk put it.
I've done very little testing and the only thing I've noticed that hasn't been mentioned is the the trigger "Extra Charge!" (spellid: 70849) when the 4pt10 procs. I'll do some more GCD testing tonight.
As for prioritization, I would not change my current priorities for the SD proc because:
1.) It's bugged, will be tough to track (although not impossible) when the 2 stack SD is actually a 1.5s GCD or 1s GCD
2.) Chance on over-riding is low. Yes when it gets over-written or refreshed it would suck, but using maths, the chances of it over-writing is very low, which leads to a low opportunity cost (although you do give up a future normal SD proc). Truthfully I am not entirely clear on the opportunity cost when compared with MS and it'd be great if anyone could clarify this.
3.) Rage Considerations. If you prioritize SD over Mortal Strike, it is very likely that you will end up delaying Mortal Strike a long time because of rage issues. Not to mention that low rage executes are more rage efficient than high rage ones so if I had a lot of rage, I would much rather spend that rage on Mortal Strike first and then have a lower rage execute, especially with the sudden death bug that can drain your rage bar. The chance of 4pt10 proc is too low for it to be worth prioritizing over MS.
Obviously it's just my opinion and I would like to see what others are planning to do in terms of prioritization and why.
It's speculative in either direction. You are correct in that Echoes of Doom hit mid-October while WotLK launched mid-November, yet the Devs saw it fit to send a reminder 6 to 9 months in advance of when most are expecting Cataclysm to hit. Is this relevant to WotLK content? It's unclear, but what is clear is that they wanted us to keep this in mind with our current gear investments, to avoid being 'disappointed', as Bornakk put it.
I have to add there that every major Add-on content patch the overall damage of the raid went up (because of better talents, etc). Ideally you would try to down the bosses before this patch (and gather your perfect gear in that time) because after a patch release, killing the bosses is probably not as hard as before. So I would not concern about future gear choices.
The 4pcT10 proc shouldn't change that much hs usage.
First of all I suppose it should work granting 2 SD Exe with 1s GCD, and a refresh when you have 1 stack will only refresh the duration but won't overwrite the SD with gcd reduction. In this situation you have no real reason to prioritize the Exe over MS or OP because what you would miss is a normal Exe overwrite, and we already know that after a certain treshold (more or less after 4pc T9) the damage difference between Slam and Exe is not enough to make the latter priotized over any other spell except Slam, and only when using it won't prevent the usage of hs on next swing.
Instead if the behaviour is intentionally overwriting charges, then you want to use both Exe asap in front of everything except OP <1s from T4b. However this wouldn't change that much our rage usage nor our spec of choice.
On average we use more HS than executes so it still makes no sense to lose 15% crit in favour of 190 dmg before modifiers. If we use 8s interval (extremely generous), you normally deal 5 Exe in 40s using 7.5s of GCD time. You'll step to have 6 Exe every 41s using 8s GCD time. Since your average damage per GCD of Exe will become 1.33s, those 190 damage will be turned into a 222 damage and won't change that much.
On the rage side you will surely prefer to have 30 rage to dump the 1s Exe, but this will only change those situations where you are using slam+hs instead of exe so this means you barely lose 1 hs every 2-3 procs, probably more.
The 4pc T10 is not a massive upgrade. You trade 1/3 Slam for 1 execute every ~45s compared to normal, and with my current gear it would be an additional 40sh SEP (very generously), that honestly seems underbudget. Having to use both exe immediatedly because of the risk to overwrite can further reduce the DPS, being able to use it in 5-6s window will instead give you slightly more MS time. It's not even sure that with it you will prefer to use Glyph of Execution instead of Bladestorm for single target fights.
I did more testing of the GCD testing of the 4pt10 last night and can confirm that when 4pt10 refreshes or replaces an existing SD buff that execute will have a 1.5s GCD.
What I have also noticed that hasn't been mentioned is that a 4pt10 proc with 2 charges that has under 10 seconds remaining can be replaced by a normal Sudden Death (ie you lose 1 charge and GCD becomes 1.5s). I was thinking I may have fat fingered execute several times while testing, but I finally got it to happen while I was in a bladestorm so I am positive about this. Looks like the more powerful buff is based purely on the time remaining and has nothing to do with the stacks.
I've submitted a bug report in the forums so hope for the best.
I searched the thread for information on mace spec, but after not finding anything I figured I'd ask the question.
I understand how sunder / faerie fire work separately from your armor penetration, therefore even with sunder you'll need your own personal 100% armor penetration to be capped on the boss. I read a few times on this thread that battle stance does work with your own personal armor pen however, causing you to only need 90% passive (84% with the T9 2-Piece).
My question is does mace spec work into your own personal armor pen. For example, with the Battle Stance, T9 2-Piece, and Mace Spec, would you only need 69% passive armor pen to hit the cap? I was under the impression that the armor pen cap was somewhere around 1400 (I thought I read it was 1417 somewhere on this thread).
So assuming it was 1400, and you only needed 69% passive to be capped, do you really only need 966 Passive Armor Pen to be capped as a mace spec arms warrior?
Just posing the question because the "Cryptmaker" mace dropped and a warrior who prefers the arms play style was interested in knowing how the cap worked with mace spec.
That is very lame. I hope it does not work that way for Fury as well. What a letdown. There aren't even any good offset drops in ICC!
Would a change along the lines of "there's a 20% chance your next proc will give 2 charges and decrease the proc's GCD to 1 sec for the next 10 seconds" instead of "for the next X charges" be a good fix for this? Or would it be overpowered?
In all honesty i doubt i'll be pleased with the bonus even after they fix it - it's just too sketchy, and i definitely don't like th way it interferes with rotations - this prolly being more annoying for arms. Why couldn't we get a straight-forward bonus like dk's did :<
I think a simple "Lowers global CD of Slam and SD Execute by 0.5 sec" without double charges etc, would be nice enough of a bonus. Maybe even lower ANY execute gcd so we get some use out of it.
i got my Shadow's edge yesterday and i realize that Slam and MS even does much damage than Execute. I think it is because of Slam and MS scales up with weapon damage much more than Execute (base on rage and AP). My maximum MS damage was 12900 while execute only got 9700 damage. Is it possible to maximize dps by replacing Slam and MS instead of using Execute if u have a high-end weapon, even when the boss has less than 20% hp? So what use of 4 pcs T10 in this case?
i got my Shadow's edge yesterday and i realize that Slam and MS even does much damage than Execute. I think it is because of Slam and MS scales up with weapon damage much more than Execute (base on rage and AP). My maximum MS damage was 12900 while execute only got 9700 damage. Is it possible to maximize dps by replacing Slam and MS instead of using Execute if u have a high-end weapon, even when the boss has less than 20% hp? So what use of 4 pcs T10 in this case?
I noticed that same thing. Can you remember what was the average damages?
I'm starting to feel like that 4peaces T10 bonus is not even so good with arms. If the execute would work like before with 100rage it would rock but now i dont think so. Even after target is <20% priority is like rend, OP, MS, execute?
01/22/10, 5:48 PM
)?
Similar Threads
