Don't forget that slam pauses your swing timer which will slow the damage out you get from whites. This also impacts the rage intake you get as well which in turn can affect your damage out from yellows.

You can replace MS or Exe with Slam and have a damage increase only when it will make you fit more HS. For Exe you only need ~1/3rd of HS to even out, MS will probably need more than 2/3rd.

It is difficult to estimate all the possible cases because of how the rage left propagates into following swings. It would be a probabilistic table of results depending on the outcomes of your next white swings, so it won't be perfectly suited to suggest what to do in every case, despite it will be enough to make a model to derive SEPs.

I can't argue with the results: top arms warriors are rolling with expertise-less builds, but a few thing's don't add up to me.

-Overpower obviously causes expertise to be worth less, but even if overpower didn't proc off dodges, would exp still be worth ignoring? I'm sure all these things have been considered but, half the time they dodge when tfb is up, wasting it. Also, the "ideal" rotation, if I have it right, is to save tfb until about 4 seconds are left and another one is supposed to proc right? Increasing its uptime, increasing the chance of wasting a dodge. Or does rolling with no expertise change your priority to: overpower first whenever it's up, regardless of how?

First off you don't postpone tfb for the sake of postponing it, you postpone it to keep MS on cd and use SD procs. When running a low expertise build you do have to change your priorities and make sure to use overpowers earlier to prevent over writing them or when your other attacks are dodged it's a large dps loss since you don't gain an over power in exchange.

Come within 6% hard cap Arp and I'm assuming 4 piece T10 would then be superior?

No, because the stats you would gain by keeping the 2 pc t9 bonus outweigh the dps gain from getting the 4 pc t10 bonus. The only way I could see 4pc t10 being better is if you had 232 ilvl t9.

I hope blizz fixes the 4pc t10 set bonus soon...

T10 is item level 251. if I had 4 tokens already for the ilvl 264 gear I'd surely be using the 4 pc t10 bonus. I'm pretty sure most raiding warriors have 245 ilvl t9 and would be lucky to have any t10 tokens already as most guilds like to gear their tanks/healers first. The ONLY reason I'm using 4pc t10 right now is to get used to the changes in rotation.

The new version of Landsoul's spreadsheet (edit - does not) include the 4pc t10 bonus for arms. The 4 pc t10 bonus pretty much sucks and makes your rotation even more complicated.

It does? When I set the Setbonus to 1 instead 0 it changes nothing for me. Same for changing my gear to 4t10 instead of other items. And yes, I did update my version.

You're right, I changed it to 0 and nothing changed, but it still tells you how to change your priorities which is why I thought it was working. After I looked again Landsoul said the 4pc t10 isn't working for arms =/ He just put it first thing rather than in the notes. Nice trick ;p At any rate, 6% arpen is a pretty nice bonus compared to a little extra DPS and possible rage slip 2% or so of the time if you ask me. I guess we can agree to disagree.

The stats on the I-level 251 T10 don't seem to match the 6% armor pen (~80 armor pen) from keeping two piece 245 T9. For now I'm going 251 head and shoulder 245 T9 chest and gloves and working on getting the plate crafted pants to trade that huge amount of armor pen for the expertise on the T9 pants. How are other's itemizing right now with so few 264 tokens available for the next several weeks (or longer)? Praying for VOA boss 264 drops?

Well, I have 2 264 pieces and 1 251. After all this discussion about 4 piece I decided to get the agi/arp cloak from the vendor and finally getting the chest this week. I think that the 4 piece will be better assuming they fix all the bugs (im guessing that could be fixxed this maintenance since 4 piece issues were discovered under 2 weeks ago). If the math does work out to be 2 piece tier 9 > 4 piece, then im sure you can all expect a buff, so you might as well get the 4 piece now reguardless. Ill be testing the 4 piece this week and trying to figure out a correct prioritization.

Rage management and Heroic Strike use can really make or drain your DPS. Start learning to manage your rage by using Heroic Strike when your upcoming priorities for GCD are low rage cost abilities like Overpower and Rend.

Also I would recommend getting the 2 piece Tier 10 bonus at your earliest convenience as the proc provided is quite good.

But how could an additional possible OP make up for a completely lost GCD? I don't get it tbh. What is considered a "low EXP" build? 20xp? 10xp?
Anyone here tried it out with success?

Yes, it works and theres basically two aspects to it.

If fury gets dodged it has no way to recoup that damage, arms does. Even if an overpower doesn't work out, on average, to be more damage then the average dodged attack plus 2/3s of a slam (or whatever you would have used instead of the OP) and sometimes dodge and TfB OPs overwrite each other, a certain percentage of all dodged attack's damage is clawed back so to speak.

Secondly, by not bothering with expertise gear you open up your gearing options for all your slots so a more 'perfect', higher DPS combination of gear is available.

You do pretty much have to make OP your top priority though to minimise overwritten OPs for it to work. As for low expertise, ATM my only expertise item is Bloodbath Belt and i'll be getting rid of that as soon as I can.

I would say yes. The scaling on Execute is nonexistent so at higher gear levels, there is that threshold where MS and OP will outdamage Exe per gcd. Like, at lower gear levels exe spam at 20% with OPs thrown in to conserve rage is very much viable, however, later on its just not worth the rage when your MS/OP does more damage.

A dodge OP can only be used for the next GCD, is that correct? You need a hell of a reaction for that.

But it isn't it like, when a melee swing gets dodged and OP lights up, I MUST use it with the next GCD or else it's gone?
Example: EXE (dodged and OP lights up) > MS (dodge OP's gone) ?
I'm asking because most of the time I'm already hammering on the next style that's ready as soon as the GCD is over. So that leaves me basically 1,5 seconds to stop pushing (EXE/MS/SLAM...whatever) and switch over to OP? How could that be possible in a fight where you also have to concentrate on other things? I mean a dodge OP is not really something you can concentrate on, since it's not happening really often and totally random. Is there any way I can configure Power Auras to react on a dodge?

That's incorrect.

I'm at 10 exp and it's the most I've had in a while. As soon as I can get my hands on some blood-soaked saronite stompers I'll be back down to 4. Keep in mind that overpower is a very strong attack with very low rage cost and in a proper raid will crit 100% of the time giving more deep wounds damage as well as possibly increasing your heroic strike frequency depending on your rage and priorties at the time of the dodge. With an incite build this can even further increase deep wounds damage due to high heroic strike crit chance.

Currently I'm going by the normal rotation under 20% and just using execute instead of slam unless I get a t10 proc. It may be worth noting that the execute glyph seems like it would be a better choice than bladestorm glyph while using the 4pc t10 bonus. Personal preference here, but I've always used execute glyph so maybe I'm biased. Trinket procs tend to line up better with a 1m30sec bladestorm CD.


Question above: A dodge OP can be used anytime before your next TfB OP proc.

Hey, I play an Arms warrior, and in most cases when I know there will be little to no AOE required in a fight, I like to use this as my starting rotation.. It usually gives me great results to start, but then fades down slowly.. I mean at first glance it seems that it's got to be a good idea to get that great of a start, but I wonder if it's me failing to produce DPS or if maybe this is way to start is actually hurting my DPS in the beginning by looking so great.. The rotation goes like this..

Recklessness>Charge>Rend>Bladestorm(This, if done right, will end with exactly one second left on Jugg)>MS>OP>Slam>Slam(the last two can sometimes change of course if a Sudden Death procs

Usually this has me at the top of the meters for the first 10-15 seconds of the fight, but then it's like I'm almost deflated somehow the rest of the way out.. I do that rotation because the first three swings of Bladestorm all crit, which gets Deep Wounds ticking, and if I'm lucky and some of the last spins crit then DW is really going.. And since those swings happen every one second instead of having to wait 1.5 for GCD, I figured it must be a good idea.. But that's why I'm posting, maybe I'm missing something to make this really good, or maybe I'd be better off just waiting for everything to be on CD and pop Bladestorm when I would normally have to pop a slam or two.

I hope that all makes sense lol the question is just whether or not starting like that is a good idea or bad idea... If it's just a bad idea, I'll stop.. But if it's a good idea, then give me some reasons I can't seem to keep up later in the fight if you can.

Thanks

Possibly because after the first rotation, Arms doesn't really have a rotation.
Unlike fury, it makes you think of what moves to use.

It really is a priority based system. If SD procs, use it. If MS is up, use it. If OP is up use it. If nothing is up, slam.
If all three are up, Execute, MS, OP.

What I have been noticing is, that since the lack of a rage cost that OP has, that it actually is a great rage increase in a pinch, especially if the boss is below 20% and execute has made you go rageless, just refresh it with an OP crit.

Oh yes, and keep rend up. That could be why. You also have a LOT of haste, get rid of it for ArP and go for the hardcap. It is quite easy to get hard capped in Arms.

You only need 84% to be hard capped in 2pc T9.

Well popping bladestrom as soon as possible is fine, you just need to watch out not to overaggro.
You didnt mentioned Sweeping strikes. Its quite case dependant how useful it is, but its an aoe ability, if you use it properly it can be 9-10% additional dmg. Replace your heroic strikes with cleave. You can also use whirlwind on 3-4 targets, and thunderclap on 4 or more. ( Sadly thuderclap scaling with 12%ap and with spellcrit...spell->warrior..but its still worths using, especially cz its applying dw )