On the topic of Improved Charge being a waste of points, and one of the main issues with dpsing as prot is low rage generation, has anyone experimented with using (improved) Charge as a rage booster? I'm of course assuming you'd never leave home without Warbringer as prot..
Charge has an 8 yard minimum range. Melee range is 5 yards. Covering 3 yards takes a fraction of a second and timing it right (easy with a slow weapon) you won't even miss a white hit. It costs you a GCD, but if you don't have enough rage to Devastate/SS you'd lose that GCD anyway.
You can put those two points into Improved Rend instead. So long as mangle is up, and especially with a slow DPS weapon you're going to get much better damage returns on trading some devastates for keeping rend up.
Again, it's not going to be mind blowing DPS, but it's a better return on those two points.
For reference, I have 2 Silent Crusade swords and a mid level dps set (don't get much for offspec drops so still using BzerkrCall trinket with blue rings etc). Our guild is still working on Malygos 10/25 with only a couple of full clear Naxx25s.
Last night I was asked to dps as prot (15/5/51) since our only subs to fill raid were also prot. For a fight like Thadius - anybody can tank so didn't need me to MT.
I am at work right now so can't link webstats but Pushed 5.6k and miss-timed my trinket/hero etc as I don't practice dpsing. It is quite fun to do some dps at times and I don't see how I could get anywhere near that high with a shield
We had our druid and DK tank in our cleanup raid this week so I got to dps on Sapphiron again. Raid was kind of lazy in general with only 22 people, but I pulled 2100 dps. I just got a new fun prot dps toy off KT (the fist weapon) so I'm guessing next time I could do more than that too .
Edit: I can't believe someone cited this for an infraction? Seriously... I posted earlier in this thread that in my opinion dual wield devastate spam using fury gear as prot is > 1h/s when us prot warriors have to dps. There was a lot of anecdotal evidence in this thread, and most of those didn't even link to an actual combat log parse. Another poster disagreed saying that they did pretty well with 1h/s and linked a report for Sapphiron and wanted to see if I could get a WWS from next time I did Sapphiron. This is that post (I finally wasn't tanking or fury spec).
As to the continued discussion, who knows when 3.1 will get here and whether or not it will have dual spec. Unless someone can show me otherwise, I think the best dps as prot 15/5/51 spec will come from dual wielding in zerker stance spamming HS/WW/Dev mixing in CB/SW when they are up. The rage generation is just that much better than 1h/s.
Okay, so from what I've been reading, here's what we are up to:
We can dps as prot specced in 3 ways:
1 - In Prot gear, in zerker stance.
2 - In Fury gear (with 1 handers), in zerker stance.
3 - In Fury gear (with 1h / shield), in zerker stance.
1 - Lots of shield block value, with devastate and shield slam rotations, using CB and SW when they are up, and HS with your extra rage (which you probably won't have). Its safer, in case the MT dies, but thats not expected.
2 - Devastate and HS spam, using CB and SW when they are up. Should have HS and Dev at about 50% crit, raid buffed.
3 - Lots of shield block value cus of the high str on the gear. This should bring you close to 50% crit on HS and Devastate too, using CB and SW when they are up. Low rage generation.
Questions:
Im in a 15 / 5 / 51 build right now, with imp rend, imp HS, up to deep wounds. I didn't see a single poster talking about rend. Is it worth applying every 15 seconds? Also, in a dummy, only with bshout, and on prot gear / def stance, deep wounds is giving me 45 damage a second. That is about a 45 dps boost (considering you crit once every 6 seconds). Is it even worth it to have? Isnt it better to take impale, and use the 2 points in deep wounds on cruelty?
Actually, that's the best summary that I have seen so far. I had almost abandoned this thread due to my inability to contribute with WWS stats.
I think testing is now the step to go through, select the theoretically optimal rotation and dummy test each method (althought the argument should only really cover method 2 and 3, which are undeniably optimal from a dps perspective, and method 1 only offers 'oh shit' situation flexibility which should never arise).
Tested today dpsing in fury gear with 2 tanking swords (Red Sword of Courage and Slayer of the Lifeless) with a 4/5 T7 gear, and mostly heroic / naxx 10 epics. Being above 8% hit, at 25 expertise (almost capped), with a 3350 attack power unbuffed, and 42.9% crit on HS and Devastate, I considered my dps pretty awesome for being prot. Gonna send results later when I get it recounted in some raid, with 2 actual dps weapons.
Impale and deep wounds help a lot when it comes to that situation. Rage generation was also average to good. I had to make sure I didnt HS too often tho, cus that would make me rage starved.
Are we ruling out sitting in battle stance and keeping rend up? I'm specifically thinking of the 4-piece T7 dps bonus helping with rage since with deep wounds you'd have two bleeds up most of the time. Seems like putting on a BV set (bar the 4xT7) and leaning on shield slam would be the way forward for this method but I really don't know how it would compare with the other options. It would also give access to thunderclap, which is higher damage/rage than devastate (so, say, using it just before SS is up), not to mention overpower if you're not dodge capped.
Edit: I can't believe I didn't notice rend was available in defensive stance, that was a serious mistake. Also thunderclap isn't good for dps (thanks Lakill) so the only difference using battle stance over defensive stance is the removal of 10% damage loss, gaining overpower and having to stancedance for shield block. Probably not worth it.
It would also give access to thunderclap, which is higher damage/rage than devastate (so, say, using it just before SS is up), not to mention overpower if you're not dodge capped.
Its NOT higher damage than Devastate. Like, 100% sure. Devastate is off the GCD and it has a 15% improved crit chance with talents (that I assume you would pick as prot). With impale, should give you pretty high devastates, and reapply deep wounds very often. You should be about 50% crit on devastate if you are on dps gear, raid buffed.
About the overpower, what the hell are you talking about?
First, we are talking about dpsing when we aren't tanking, in prot spec, like when you are OT and its a one boss fight, or maybe on trash. So, you aren't getting hit. Being dodge capped or not means nothing. ALSO, you wouldn't ever be dodge capped, cus you are on DPS gear (you mentioned being in 4/5 T7).
Second, overpower procs off when THE TARGET dodges, not you. So you meant expertise capped.
For now, its not worth to stance dance only to rend. When 3.1 comes out, it may be, cus of the stance change rage dump reduction. But then, dual specs will be out and we are forgetting this thread totally.
Its NOT higher damage than Devastate. Like, 100% sure. Devastate is off the GCD and it has a 15% improved crit chance with talents (that I assume you would pick as prot). With impale, should give you pretty high devastates, and reapply deep wounds very often. You should be about 50% crit on devastate if you are on dps gear, raid buffed.
About the overpower, what the hell are you talking about?
First, we are talking about dpsing when we aren't tanking, in prot spec, like when you are OT and its a one boss fight, or maybe on trash. So, you aren't getting hit. Being dodge capped or not means nothing. ALSO, you wouldn't ever be dodge capped, cus you are on DPS gear (you mentioned being in 4/5 T7).
Second, overpower procs off when THE TARGET dodges, not you. So you meant expertise capped.
For now, its not worth to stance dance only to rend. When 3.1 comes out, it may be, cus of the stance change rage dump reduction. But then, dual specs will be out and we are forgetting this thread totally.
Sword and Board (the passive effect) increases devastate crit chance by 15%, exactly the same way that Incite increases thunder clap crit chance by 15% so they should have the same crit rate. However, I was thinking of threat per rage, as discussed a while back in the tanking thread - I think you're right, devastate seems the better dps ability of the two, my mistake.
Devastate is not off the gcd (I suspect you mean it's got no cooldown except the 1.5sec gcd. Yes, so?)
Yes I understand what overpower is and by dodge-capped I meant expertise softcapped so that the target doesn't dodge. Perhaps I phrased it badly.
Sword and Board (the passive effect) increases devastate crit chance by 15%, exactly the same way that Incite increases thunder clap crit chance by 15% so they should have the same crit rate. However, I was thinking of threat per rage, as discussed a while back in the tanking thread - I think you're right, devastate seems the better dps ability of the two, my mistake.
Yup, forgot about incite. But yeah, dev > tclap for dpsing.
Originally Posted by DrChem
Devastate is not off the gcd (I suspect you mean it's got no cooldown except the 1.5sec gcd. Yes, so?)
Yup, devastate is not off the gcd, but it has no cd, except de 1.5sec GCD. SO, tclap has a cd. How are you gonna spam it along with HS for more dps and rage dumping?
But yeah, think we got into an agreement here, Chem.
Let me try to re-direct this thread a little, to a question that every warrior tank I know has.
Forget off-speccing, forget switching out gear. How can you maximize dps in tanking gear, while either tanking, or off-tanking?
One important point is that MT's do die, and the OT's ability to instantly grab the mob can save the encounter. I did that myself just last week on 25 man Thaddeus. That won't be possible if in dps gear.
Another point is that warriors seem to be falling far behind the other tanking classes for dps, which does have an impact on threat as well. I generally run about 900 dps while tanking. Working really hard, on a pure encounter like Patchwerk, the best I have pulled is 1200. I also have a pally tank, who without breaking a sweat gets to 1500, sometimes 1700. (Gear level is almost identical, btw). My paladin tank can pull threat off a warrior (almost) any time, and paladin tanks can pull threat off my warrior any time they try.
However, I have run with warrior tanks who manage to pull 1500-1700 dps while tanking--and who my paladin does not easily pull threat off of. The question then becomes, how can I do that?
One of the main troubles with warrior tanking right now, that I see, is that doing a lot of dps requires being really, really good at playing a mini-game with your buttons. You have to hit revenge whenever you can, but it comes up unpredicably instead of part of a rotation, And you hit heroic strike as often as possible, but again after certain other attacks. Also, unless you have a warrior off-tank doing this for you, you may be wanting to keep up demoralizing shout and thunderclap for the debuff (and occasionally commanding for the buff).
In the meanwhile the mob may be moving, and you can't just pay pure attention to the little mini-game on your action bar, except on occasional fights like Patchwerk where the boss does not move at all. If you are not one of the video-game generation this can be a bit much, and you just don't crank out the dps.
I have heard it suggested that making some macros can be really helpful here. Anyone have some good ideas in thsi regard?
BTW, yeah, maybe I am a bad warrior tank. But I am a real warrior tank, and a lot of other warrior tanks I know seem to have the same issue, so help is still appreciated.
Try starting with spending your 71st talent point (15/3/52 LOL?). Lose 3 points from shield spec, pick up 3/3 critical block (for the crit % on shield slam) and 2/5 cruelty. Spec 15/5/51. Cap yourself on hit and -dodge and fit in any expertise you can get above that (stop gemming for parry). Get a higher DPS weapon. You should be able to push 2000+ dps on Patchwerk if you are the MT and spec/gear like this. If you are an OT make your raid leader put you as the MT.
As general DPS theory craft has shown (in this thread and others), there isn't anything to do to push dps above what a normal rotation for max TPS is (provided your gear and talents are correct) if you are wearing full tank gear. If you really want more DPS (and TPS) swap stamina trinkets out for DMC or MoT. If don't like the "minigame" that is mashing 6-8 different keys while warrior tanking you might consider rolling a different tanking class since it has been like this since 1.0 and seems like it will stay this way. You can reduce this a little bit if you setup two action bars, one that binds every one of your abilities to a macro that casts heroic strike like this:
/cast Heroic Strike
/cast Shield Slam
That helps for high rage situations like Patchwerk, but you still need to choose which skill to use because of revenge and sword+board procs.
Please keep in mind that your DPS on fights like Patchwerk have a lot to do with fight length and Heroism uptime as well.
In a slow kill, breaking 2k is not going to be easy--especially in so-so gear. Aiming for 1.6-1.8k first is probably more realistic unless your guild is killing Patchwerk in less than 3 minutes.
Posting a WWS or something would be helpful in looking at your skill usage, though.
If you're low on DPS while tanking, the culprit is almost always one or more of the following:
- You're not hitting heroic strike enough
- You're hitting devastate too much
- Your gear/spec has problems
The first is far more likely than the second to cause abnormally low dps while tanking. On a fight like Patchwerk, you should be striving to have 0 white melee swings, assuming you have enough rage (which you usually will on that fight.) I am still trying to master this myself, I usually come in around two-thirds heroic strikes and one-third regular melee, but even that has brought me up into the 1800 dps range while tanking hatefuls on Patch-10.
The devastate point is probably a smaller chunk of DPS; basically just about every button you can push that does damage is a better dps tool than devastate. Shield slam, revenge, shockwave, heroic throw and concussion blow are all ahead of it. Depending on your gear and stats it may be possible for even thunder clap to be ahead.
The third point was already covered by Zaon in depth - you have some work to do there.
If you want to make things easier while moving and generally keeping an eye on things (how I read that minigame comment), you might want to have another look at your keybindings. There are plenty of tips, but 3 important ones are:
1) Use shift- and ctrl-modifiers if you can, they reduce the number of buttons on your keyboard that you need to mash.
2) Change A and D to strafing. Unbind Q and E for more options
3) Bind things to your mouse if you've got extra convenient buttons.
Macros are of limited use (but certainly not no use at all) - I like Zaon's suggestion of a high-rage ability bar with HS macro'd to every ability, and a low-rage one without. Sounds like having concussion blow before each would be good as well. I don't think that would work with macro'd shift-modifiers though...can someone confirm or deny this?
Edit: actually you could couldn't you...you just couldn't use the #showtooltip for whichever ability your shift-modifier would activate. Something like:
Lol I DO play another class--I have a paladin tank as well. But I do want to maximize my dps as a warrior tank too, just because the hard task often is the task worth doing. I may be slow, but eventuallly I will get this figured out.
I did maco my main buttons to put heroic strike after each one (would it make more sense to be before?). This did bump my dps up to the point where I actually broke 1K dps tanking a regular heroic run--maybe trivial for you guys, but a first for me, and the DK was able to use death and decay, which he did not think he could with a warrior tanking.
I found a very neat way to greatly reduce the amount of button mashing necessary to keep Heroic Strike up on every white swing. Basically it's what Zaon already said, only without clogging the screen with a 2nd, pretty much identical action bar.
What I did was this: I wrote a macro for every single tanking ability I regularly use (including debuffs, interrupts, reflects etc), looking like this:
#showtooltip Shield Slam
/cast Shield Slam
/cast [modifier:shift] Heroic Strike
/cast [modifier:ctrl] Cleave
Then I got myself a mouse with two extra buttons, one on each side. I set it up so that one of those two acts as a shift, the other as a ctrl key. Now whenever I have the rage to use HS, I just hold that button on my mouse down and keep doing what I was doing anyway, only that now I'm chaining HS as well. On trash, I hold the other button down and I'm cleaving...
Back in TBC I was often suffering from quite heavy pains in my wrist after a 3 hour learning Illidan for example. While I'm still mashing buttons while tanking, I'm down to one button rather than two at the same time. Also having the modifier keys on the mouse makes for a lot more comfortable useage of shift/ctrl combinations imo.
01/07/09, 11:57 AM
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