Hi,

I've been reading all the posts on all the topics in the Warriors thread, and I would really appreciate some help.
Eventhough i read all the posts and try to correct a few stats, i still seem to be having problems with dps, on Patchwerk for example i won't exceed 2k. TPS ain't really a problem, i'm constantly 4k5-6k but i have a few low peaks at 3k5.
here are my toons info :
armory The World of Warcraft Armory
the enchant on weap is fake i use accuracy.

template The World of Warcraft Armory

As you can see i've even been trying to use rend to get even more dps.
My priority list is the following :
-Shield Slam
-Rev
-Dev
-Heroic (dump)
-Concussion
-Shockwave
-TC
-Heroic Throw
-Rend

I'm pretty sure i can't do more than at this precise moment, so i've been thinking that it's due to a lack of stuff but i relaly need confirmation, or your opinions. I can eventually link a Wws of a nax 10. I've seen other wws from naxx 10, and my conclusion was that i really lack of crit. I'm pretty sure it could also come from my lack of hit / expertise.

I'd really appreciate some clarification.

Thanks.

1) Priorities have been explained many times, going over them again won't help.
2) If your latency will let you, make sure you're always fitting 3 abilities between shield slams where you don't get an S&B proc. Count them, several times.
3) Make sure you're *actually* doing the priority you say - see the issue with Andrij on the previous page.
4) You don't lack crit, hit or expertise unless you're trying to break records. A respec for 5/5 cruelty will help somewhat, but not drastically.
5) You've got jewelcrafting at max so use the prismatic gems!
5) Don't gem for parry. Ever.

If you want to do more dps you need to increase str, hit, expertise, block value or maybe crit - this is most likely to happen by using some dps gear, or gemming a second set with aggressive gems - as in gems that might not even have stamina on them.

You want to make sure you get heroic throw, conc blow and shockwave used as many times as you can per fight, probably macro conc blow before shield slam too, and I don't get why you listed Heroic Strike as your 4th priority when it is independent of your rotation - you want to use it basically every swing on a fight like Patchwerk. Your weapon is also likely letting you down, you'll see much more dps with a Last Laugh. Rend will likely lower your dps unless you are sure you know what you are doing, I wouldn't bother with it.

Just because this is the second time today I have come across the someone promoting the concept of tossing Concussion Blow into a macro with Shield Slam, just thought I would put it out there that I think this is a bad idea. Concussion Blow should be used in unison with whatever ability is next in your rotation when you are in an infinite-rage situation like Patchwerk. At times, Concussion Blow will be off cooldown and Shield Slam will not. Relying on a Concussion Blow and Shield Slam macro to handle this can work and perhaps I am nit-picking but I can't help but balk at using a macro like this. It is just further removing a tank's control over his or her rage and while it can be a band-aid for a new tank learning the warrior class, it isn't going to help in the long run in becoming a better player. While it is just a matter of a GCD or two for that shield slam macro to be used, little things like this are what make the difference between a good tank and a great tank.

I find it valuable to have that macro available, though one has to know the right time to use it. It happens frequently enough that I'll get an SnB proc in between the time when CB comes off cooldown, and the appropriate time you would ordinarily choose to use it (in front of the 4th spot in the cycle if you'd had no SnB proc). So having the macro available isn't really a bad idea, but if you're only using it when both SS and CB are up, yeah, you're probably missing times when you should have used it sooner than you would have if you were waiting for the next SS opportunity.

Manually weaving in CB/SW isn't really that difficult a thing to do if you're paying attention. Either way, it's nice having that macro keybound to use as an opener, especially immediately following a taunt (or at least, thats what I find I use it the most for). Once you're waiting on the CB cooldown in the middle of your rotation, you're better off weaving it in more selectively/intelligently.

Well the point is just to have it macrod to something so that you take advantage of it not being on the GCD, in an infinate rage situation I think it pays to have it macroed even if you delay using conc blow by 1-2 seconds while SS comes off CD if you want to squeeze out the maximum dps. Obviously this isn't as good as using it both on a macro AND the instant it comes off cooldown, but it's a pretty easy shortcut if you are struggling. It's possible you could macro it to other abilities as well thus increasing the likelyhood you trigger it. Again this is all in the context of doing as much dps as possible in an infinite rage situation: it is clumsy to have it macrod when you are rage starved.

It is encouraging laziness which isn't great but I doubt it will last forever and it's worth exploiting while you can.

Looking at Liar's priority list, then sitting back to take a second, I agree for the most part, but think there may be hope for a solid rotation. If you have your timing perfect on the money, you can save that 3rd swing after SS for either the renewal of TC or Demo. Following it, SS should be off cooldown, allowing you to reset the rotation. Now (as stated previously in multiple places) the SnB procs screw any sort of fixed rotation. I've been trying to keep Shockwave/HT available in case of a Revenge SnB proc. The Shockwave can fill the Revenge spot in the rotation, instead of trying to regiment a 20 sec & 1 minute cd into a 6 second cycle. When Shockwave isn't there to save the day, Heroic Throw. If the Dev procs SnB, SS simply takes place of the debuff/buff renewal spot, and you prioritize what needs to be renewed next circle. By keeping Shockwave/HT readily available for replacing revenge after procs, it helps steady out the sparaticness caused by SnB. Concussion Blow being off the GCD has no set place in a rotation. It's just there to give a threat spike with any attack.


SS > Revenge > Dev> Renew a debuff/buff


You only have time for 1 "Renew a debuff/buff", so rotate how you please. This spot includes TC, Demo, BS, CS, or a second dev. And of course the 4th spot in the rotation does have the 30% chance to be a SS.

If Revenge procs:

SS > Revenge(proc) > SS > Shockwave/HT > Dev > Renew a debuff/buff > SS

So to answer your question, there shouldn't be a second Dev unless your Dev does more damage/threat than your TC and you have no debuffs that will need renewal within 4 seconds.

Only issue I have seen with this is if Revenge doesn't proc, and Dev does, you have a 1/2 second window before revenge is usable again. At that point, you can either extend the rotation by throwing in a debuff after the Dev-procced SS, use that window to pop non-GCD utilities (Spell Reflect, Shield Block,CB, trinkets, etc.), or just wait the little bit for Revenge to be up. The average tank won't be hitting his attacks right on the 1.5 GCD (more like 1.6) so this window may mostly disappear for them. If both proc, Revenge will be usable after the Dev-proced SS. If nothing procs, SS is off cooldown when needed.

This is what it would look like if both Revenge and Dev proc-ed:

SS > Rev(proc) > SS > Shockwave > Dev(proc) > SS > Rev...

If Revenge procs twice in a row, use heroic throw.
If Revenge procs three times in a row, (per 3.1) with the shockwave glyph reducing the cooldown to 17 seconds, use SW.
If Revenge procs four times in a row, well I have nothing for you, but you shouldn't be complaining cause your Revenge just proced four fucking times in a row.

It may seem like you are refreshing debuffs/buffs at a very quick rate, but SnB procs will space it out.

Now just as a backup, how does Mocking Blow's threat compare to Shockwave & Heroic Throw? Not the 6 seconds of focused aggro, but the actual threat generated from the attack.

Why do you not want to use shockwave or heroic throw until you get a S&B proc? Threat values (below) from earlier in the thread indicate that each should be prioritised above devastate at any time, which your cycle doesn't seem to be doing. Why not just replace the next devastate with them as soon as they're off cooldown (and, for that matter, the buff/debuff group)? Simplifying the priority list and trying to develop a cycle by grouping different abilities is a nice thought but it seems to me that a cycle is nevertheless somewhat overcomplicated, the way we are now. I'm not trying to be argumentative, just that I must be missing something in your logic

Dr. Chem, keep in mind this is not standard with what we've been doing so far in WotLK. Anyone reading this new to tanking looking for sound, safe advice, then I suggest you refer to previous posts of priority lists. This is simply an attempt at finding a rotation that Sword and Board fits into with optimal threat.


What do you do when Revenge is on cooldown at the same time as Shield Slam, when your debuffs are freshly laid? Spam Devastate in hopes of a SnB proc? Not entirely. I am well aware of the priority list and keeping up with threat has been a non issue. There just has to be a better system than just throwing spare abilities (Shockwave & HT) frivilously that take up the gcd for better threat than a Devastate. What do you do in the 18.5 seconds it takes for Shockwave to come off its cooldown when you just used HT 2 shield slams ago? It seems you are limited to SS & Revenge, which you have to wait on, and spams of Dev &TC to fill the gaps.

I'm not saying you'll be using Shockwave and HT scarcely. On the contrary, on a 20 second timeline, 4 Revenges, how often does Revenge proc SnB? Once or twice usually. How often does it proc twice in a row? Instead of just throwing higher threat attacks around loosely for a tps spike, why not time them to a point in which they will be needed; when SS and Revenge are on CD, keeping average threat higher (see the order in the post above.)

I was wrong in saying this was a 6 second cycle. It's only goes to 6 seconds if SnB doesn't proc on the 2 opportunities available. Saying so would lead you to believe the rotation is based off SS, as it was in the past with any standard BC and Vanilla rotation. And then came Sword and Board, allowing you to have more than one SS in 6 seconds, with no control beyond hitting it when possible and hoping for the best. SS may be the top-priority-to-hit attack, but the rotation revolves around Revenge and it's 5 second, unchangeable cd to which you can factor in Shockwave after the occasional revenge proc, and Heroic Throw on the even rarer occasion of a double Revenge proc, and weave SS's all throughout in an organized manner.

It's a very short rotation (4 swings) that resets with every SS. The longer rotations simply show how Shockwave takes the place of Revenge when its on cooldown. The only reason Revenge would be on cd at the reset of the rotation is if SnB proced on a Revenge, no where else; controling the procs.

With the "renew a debuff" being at the end of the rotation, but before Devastate, this spot will be overridden a good deal of the time with the priority of a SS from a Dev-proc. Just like a Revenge's proc, the Dev's SS resets the rotation, and just in time for Revenge to be off cooldown; controling the procs. As far as keeping your debuffs up, with the rotation reset, you'd actually be refeshng one ability in 2 rotations. Same with revenge procs. The reset lengthens the time between refreshers of the 4th swing actually being used for a TC or demo. Just try going 2-3 rotations and see if you cannot proc SnB. It will be a rare occurence.

I'm a little tired, and don't think I can explain this any better than the confusion above.

If you have any suggestions, I'm all ears. But as far as I can see, with SS no longer being structured to 6 seconds, a rotation based around it is impossible. Trying to would leave you with only a priority list. And I want to decide where my SnB procs will happen in my rotation, not leaving it to chance to get all my cooldowns into a button mashing cluster-fuck. It's just a little weird having to keep track of the last couple SnB procs as you time your attacks so Revenge is available right off its cd, while having to do the fight.

I personnaly find that you are less effective while trying to handle some "if then... else if then... if then..." while tanking...
(I mean if dev proc etc, if rev proc etc...)
Indeed, the only thing in my opinion you have to bother are the priorities listed above. Full stop.
The tanking gameplay is in Wotlk is a "push button when it pops"

1- When SS is up I do SS (with S&B included)
2- When rev is up I do rev
3- When conc blow is up I do conc blow with whatever abilities up according to the priorities.
4- When shockwave is up I do Shockwave
5- When HT is up I do HT (this one is a little bit more controversed)
6- When dev is up I do dev

That's all you have to worry about in My opinion... trying to do something else leads to confusion (blow? /Lol)
Then if you want to do "even more" is just about expetise/hit cap + STR gem or stuff gearing...
Also... but it comes with experience, a great tank would "act" rapidly pressing buttons (all bound !) without wasting so much time between each skills. But that, you have to practice, and on a fight like Patchwerk, you should be around 35% heroik strike if you don't waste so much time on spamming ;p

And also, I agree with the fact that maccros are the hell ! I never used any macros and I do above 3k dps on patchwerk if the raid's DPS follows (don't forget that it counts a lot) and with only a "nearly max hit/expertise stuff"(cause hell, patch hurts sometimes... :p), no pots.

"if then... else if then... if then..." while tanking...Let me ask you this. Do you use Intervene for its intentional purposes? Can you use it so fast in the midst of combat that if a mob is less than 15 yards from an aggroing dps, you'll still take the first, one-shotting hit? A good deal of are abilities are used with the "if then" rationality. If I use Shockwave as soon as I charge thru trash, then I will get no rage from Zerker rage, not generate any rage from being hit, lowering initial threat, resulting in dps having to lean on me for threat.

When Intervene was released, most tanks didn't bother with it too much besides catching up to a party member after a wipe. It was different. It was only until WotLK did it start being taken into consideration more, with it reducing threat by 10%. Those I see meddling with it now still have terrible reaction time, but they are getting better with practice. Soon they may learn they can combo their charges without leaving defensive stance; going from face to face with Lady Blaumeux to Sir Zeliek in less than 3 seconds.

The point I'm trying to make is we generally fear change. Those willing to test out new ideas will stumble over their feet for a while, but gradually over time get a feel and understanding for what they were skeptical towards (or may see a better idea than the first.) Veteran tanks know about the cycle used previously. With WotLK, we adapted and conceded that trying to continue the 6 second cycle was futile. Instead, we instituted a priority list and have gone forward with it. It was a little shakey at first, but those who already had this list (for the most part) ingrained inside their heads picked it up quick, and started to excel at pushing buttons as soon as they lit up. . o 0(I see a child with a rubber mallet, in front of whack-a-mole)

I'm going to try this rotation out and see where it leads. There is nothing further to it. We know what our acceptable avoidance/mitigation needs to be. We know the Hit/Ex cap for maximum tps efficency with our attacks. We have reached these goals. Now I'm aiming to find something different and a little more challenging. If this doesn't work out, then it doesn't work out and I move on to the next sparkle of interest that meets the eye. If we do not reach out into the unknown, how are we to know what is out there for us to grab?

And Patchwerk is a terrible example of testing a tank's ability. You stand there. You avoid damage. You take damage. You deal damage. The only thinking that really happens is the timer you keep on rotating trinkets and abilities to reduce the most amount of damage, unless you have an addon for that. Then you're simply playing "bop-it." Do Malygos with no slows or DK grips, that's more like it.

A lot of heroic bosses can be disarmed. For example, Skadi in UP could be disarmed for when he whirlwinds or the General boss in Nexus that whirlwinds as well. Come to think of it, I believe the Gundrak final boss can also be disarmed. (also whirlwinds)... A lot of the trash in DK wing in Naxx can be disarmed.

To the best of my knowledge, the only relevant use of disarm in an actual boss encounter of a raid environment is on the Four Horsemen. Baron and Thane can both be disarmed.

Either way, the two points spent here could be spent better elsewhere. Look to put those two into cruelty or something of that nature. At this point, the 10% damage buff doesn't apply to enough relevant encounters. In theory, this could change in Ulduar but it is doubtful. Really more of a PVP talent.

About the CB/SB macro, it looks like there's a 1,5sec gcd on conc blow again on PTR doesn't it?
I'm not sure because of the latency (>400) but that would destroy this macro anyway.

Can anybody confirm this? If this is true and a GCD has been added back to concussion blow then this is a sad day indeed.

Today I had some spare time to develop a TPS simulator. However the simulator and my last program differ in language and while it was easier to program the simulator I cannot share a executable file that easly; thus you have to trust the raw numbers.

The numbers of the new program differ about 0.25-0.75% from the values of the old program which might be cause by number conversions (I'll look into that). Other than that the program is highly accurate and simulates a 15 hour perfectly executed cycle - stats, glyphs , spec and cycle are fully customizable.

Here are the stats I used:

Stats: 4700 ap, 13% crit, 8.25 expertise, 1200 block value, 0 % armor penetration
Options: imp Revenge, Mangle/Trauma, Glyph of Devastate, Impale, CoR/Faerie Fire, Sunder Armor 5/5
Weapon: speed 1.6, dps 171.6 (Last Laugh)


Priority cycle #1:
1. Shield Slam
2. Revenge
3.1 Heroic Throw 3.2 Shockwave 3.3 Devastate
4. Thunder Clap

75 hour simulation --> 1674 TPS

Priority cycle #2:
1. Shield Slam
2. Revenge
3.1 Heroic Throw 3.2 Shockwave
4. Devastate

75 hour simulation --> 1672 TPS

Priority cycle #3:
1. Shield Slam
2. Revenge
3. Devastate
4.1 Heroic Throw 4.2 Shockwave

75 hour simulation --> 1654 TPS

Priority cycle #4:
1. Shield Slam
2. Revenge
3.1 Thunder Clap 3.2 Devastate
4.1 Heroic Throw 4.2 Shockwave

75 hour simulation --> 1615 TPS

Remember that these TPS numbers are for specials that affect the global cooldown only - neither Concussion Blow nor Heroic Strike or white hits are included in the TPS value.

While S&B procs are powerful they are random as well. Overall the steady usage of long cooldowns wins in both the pull phase where you need burst threat and thereafter where maximum average threat over the course of the fight is needed.

The threat gain from Thunder Clap over Devastate (cycle #1 and cycle #2) is negligible and you can choose Devastate for max DPS or Thunder Clap for max survival.

Right, I thought the same as well. We'll have to see what Ulduar has to offer I suppose then. I ended up putting the 2 points into Impale for the 20% crit buff for higher DPS.

It appears to be an intended change at least. I would bet on it going live.

"Concussion Blow: Now properly triggers a 1.5 second global cooldown."

This is in the patch notes as a bug, so obviously it wasn't intended to take it off.

Guess we're back to weaving in yet another cd to tanking.

This is all very good info. I leveled as arms but have switched to proc. recently and I am having some trouble with it. I have no problem holding single target agro but have found that holding multiple mobs agro is more difficult for me. I run instances with a DK friend who pulls agro of trash mobs from me at times. So I need to cycle / target thru all the mobs to assure I hold agro? I have a hell of a time targeting thru if say 4 or 5 are on me. How do u guys cycle thru & hold consistant agro of multi mobs?

Cycle recommendations for holding aggro on a pack of mobs has already been discussed in this thread. However, I wanted to add that this can also be dependent on gear. A dps with good gear may very well continually pull aggro off of a tank with lower quality (or less threat oriented) gear. In those cases the dps either needs to back off or you just have to deal with occasionally having to reel a mob back in. I'm hopeful that you're already putting vigilance on this person.

I've noticed the 1.5 cooldown on Concuss Blow too. PTR today.

Would there be any error in making a macro that has a cast sequence for Shield Slam -> Revenge, depending on which is up? Since those are the two highest threat abilities, I was thinking that they could go together into a single macro, in order to best prioritize one's threat abilities. So that if one is ever up, using the macro would provide the highest threat at that GCD. My idea for it was something like:

#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=1 Shield Slam(Rank 8), Revenge(Rank 9)