Shha

I just started looking closer at your sim Tankietka, and Im trying to find out - how to input stats.

Is weapon damage the actual weapon or the char sheet main/offhand damage?
What modifiers should i take into account - are the STR/AP stats and such, including things like Strength of Arms or not?

Basically some instruction manual.

 

dragondeath46

Have you thought about lending your talent to SimulationCraft, which can be found at simulationcraft - Google Code

I know that Warriors have not been implemented yet, and I'm not sure if anyone has even started working on them, but I do know that it would be wonderful if you were able to help the project out as well.

 

Tankietka

Weapon damage
Currently it is average hit damage, that is (min_dmg+max_dmg)/2.

Input stats
You should not count any increases/decreases from talents and buffs implemented in DPSSim - it is added automaticaly when you choose given talent/buff (for example, when you choose Strength of Arms your strength will automaticaly be buffed by 4% - when you change strength after selecting SoA, 4% will be calculated for new value automaticaly). Calculated value after counting in all selected talents and buffs is visible in greyed out field to the right of input field.

A good procedure to get proper final stats is:

1. select all talents, buffs, glyphs, set bonuses
2. enter such stat values that in greyed out field you will get value you see on character sheet (while under buffs chosen in step 1)

Crit, hit chance, haste and armor penetration are entered as percents: 0.01 = 1%.

Buffs
There are two kinds of buffs: static and dynamic.

Static is as name says - you have it all the time or want to simulate it this way (obvious for Blessing of Might, if you want to simulate only execute phase, there is static buff just for that).

Dynamic however is a buff that not necessarily is always active/available. Currently there are 3:
- Bloodrage: if selected simulation will "use" this ability every time it is off cooldown (you can see it in Simulation and Results view)
- HP based buffs: if selected conditions (treated as "buffs") will be simulated - for example Rend's "If used while your target is above 75% health, Rend does 35% more damage" or "Under 20% HP" abilities will become active. Note that HP of target is not actually simulated, so it is assumed that 75%HP is reached after 25% of fight length and similarily 20%HP at 80% of fight length.
- Recklessness: same as Bloodrage, if selected simulation will use it every cooldown

I'm working currently on trinkets, hopefully in next few weeks it will be ready.

Simulation view

Example simulation:

Number in square brackets [] is amount of rage AFTER using ability in this line.
Number in curly brackets {} is length of cooldown of given ability.
Targets are named T1,T2,...,Tn.

Rotation
Hopefully it is quite clear - you choose abilities in prioriy list (top ones have higher priority than lower ones) adding conditions on which they should be used.
Simulation takes such list and going from top to bottom looks for ability it should execute. After finding one for which there is enough rage at the moment, it is not on cooldown and set condition is met it is executed and simulation goes back to first ability on list.

Results
This panel contains some values calculated/gathered during simualtion. For example:

 

Tankietka

Unfortunately not at this time, especially that C++ is not language I know very well.

 

Laurana

Happy you. C++ is a giant pain in the butt to write. Its only advantage over Java is that it is obviously much faster.

I still would like to know thouch why the calculated offhand damage is less than 50% of the calculated mainhand damage for two equal weapons :/

 

Tunedbeats

With all the improvements to the JVM and JIT compilers you can safely take "obviously" and "much" and replace it with "slightly".

 

Tankietka

Good catch, pretty big bug on my side - in some places I counted offhand damage 50% reduction twice.

Bug is now fixed, corrected version is available under original link.

Using the opportunity - Improved Berserker Stance has been updated to 20% strength bonus.

 

Laurana

I have never used JIT java compilers yet but I can imagine them producing fast code. As for the JVM, last time I checked it was still slower than native code by at least two orders of magnitude. Maybe I'm out of date on that though.

 

Rack

I tried out the mod, looks pretty good! Here are my notes/users manual if you just want to look at your Character Sheet (CS) and input your stats, with examples!

Average Damage: (weapon top end + weapon bottom end)/2. [910+606/2 = 758]
Speed: Weapon swing speed, unbuffed. [3.40]
Strength: Untalented Strength (might need to round up to get it right). This means you'll have to divide by 1.04 to account for Strength of Arms, etc. [1085/1.04 = 1043.2, input 1044]
Agility: Untalented Agility. [314]
AP: Mouse over Power, find the D in "Melee Attack Power B (C + D). Subtract AP from talents (like AttT) and input result. [MAP 3484 (2390 + 1094) 1094 - (13914/60)= 862.1. Input 863]. Also, DPSSim seems to assume a 5/5 Commanding Presence Battle Shout, so subtract 55 for every 2 points in Commanding Presence you don't/won't have. [863 - 2x55 = 753]
Crit Chance: Mouse over Crit Chance, find (+X% crit chance). Input X/100. [18.80/100 = 0.188]
Haste: Mouse over Speed, find (+Y% haste). Input Y/100. [3.87/100 = 0.0387]
Expertise: Mouse over Expertise, find (+Z expertise). Input Z. [26]
Ignore Armor: Mouse over hit, find (Enemy armor reduced by up to A%). Input A/100. [5.46/100= 0.0546]
Armor: Input armor - 2xAgility. [13914 -2x314 = 13286]

For quick and dirty trinket sim, I just used a stat on the trinket, assumed the proc was worth the same in terms of stat points, and added the adjusted proc equivalent on top of the previous inputs. Greatness has +90strength, proc would then be worth +90 more strength and Mirror of Truth. with 84 crit rating, would have a proc worth 84x2 or 168 AP. This likely overestimates uptime, but not by much.

 

Tinktank

Am I the only one who thinks that Rend is doing less damage on the simulator? Rend ticking for less than 600 with 2/2 imp rend and trauma up, it's like half of its damage.

 

Shha

Overpower also seems to do way less damage then it should (less damage in simulation with full raid buffs, then i get on unsundered dummy).

 

Flaps

Might be me but I've been trying to simulate Dual Wield Arms with Mace and Poleaxe specialization but it seems that selecting Mace Spec. doesn't affect my dps at all/enough.

 

Shha

Also expertise and -dodge talents seem to do exactly nothing (are dodges even simulated?)

 

Tankietka

Hmm, maybe you are expecting values with bonus from above 75% HP with no "HP based buffs" selected? If that's not solution please post/send stats/talents/simulation log.

The only thing that comes to mind is that maybe that's because in simulation all weapon damage is averaged, so weapon with big difference between min and max damage in real environment can show white hits/Overpowers etc as bigger.
Damage calculation is essentially the same as for Mortal Strike (except bonus damage, talents and glyphs). Do you see this difference on Mortal Strike hits too? Whirlwind?
Nonetheless I will recheck it on my character.

Strange, they work for me. Can you post what stats/talents you have selected?

Have you selected mace type for weapon/weapons in Stats panel?

 

Flaps

Yes I did, but I'm dual wielding an axe in the mh and a mace in the offhand with both poleaxe and mace spec.
The mace spec option seems to work fine when I only got a 2h mace equiped but it doesn't seem to work when I'm offhanding it as a 1her.

 

Shha

Ok so let me try tackling the problems. Its mostly connected to arms.

a) DPS seems to be about right

b) Overpower regularly shows only ~90% efficiency of use. Thats a bit low for a skill that can be shuffled around. Its around 450 hits in 3000 sec sim , never above 460

c) Mortal strike shows uses once every 7.5+ second. While i did prioritize execute higher for that run, its still awfully low.
Prioritized as highest skill except for bladestorm (above Exe OP or rend) , it still was used only once per around 6.5 sec.

d) overpower crit shows at 4088 average for dummy with battle shout. Thats with averaged Greatness/Grim tolls. In fact WITHOUT those trinkets my minimal crit was 4200 over longer period of time, with average getting close to 5k and highest occurances around 7k.

e) MS crits average at 5150, instead of 5400, whites seem to be equally affected - 3250 instead of 3600. Rend tick is pretty reliably 611 for me , 503 in the simulation. Overall MS seems to lack 5% damage, whites around 10%, and OP around 20% of damage.


f) Im in fact a bit rage starved on a dummy. I understand that its not that important, but your simulation shows basically perfect gcd usage, and lots of rage overflows (around once per 30 sec). In real testing i NEVER have rage overflows (well save for REAL rng streaks, but it just happens once in 15 min of testing) on a dummy (raid is obviously different). Every 30 seconds seems really strange. In fact without sunders i often get rage starved without any special rotations - just MS,SLam,Slam,OP every 6 seconds seem to eat up all my rage - your sim even models that giving me 11.66 rage/sec which obviously is NOT enough to sustain a perfect rotation (not counting executes even, the mentioned rotation is 65 rage in 5.5 second. Adding executes only makes it worse). A combo of MS,Execute very often left me with less then 30 rage, and Slamming didnt seem to bring it above 30 for really long time (like 10+ seconds) to use MS, even with use of OP. Streak of non crits/glancings tend to do it. I waste a decent amount of GCD due to low rage as well.


All in all the damage seems on target on the dummy , but its just because 2 "opposite errors" seem to happen. Damage from swings and specials is too low, but the rage somehow is much better and rotation becomes perfect (which i can get close to with raid buffs, but never on dummy (not reliably at least - i had dummy parses with 4400+ dps already without sunders - some nice rng not only boosts your damage, but also makes the rotation easy to maintain. Still my average is around 3500 dps, and i blame a lot of it on the rage starvation).

g) as for raid buffed, the same problem with lower then expected damage is there. Im showing 5600 dps, which seems ok, but its hard for me to understand how its achieved with lower damage then expected on most attacks. Additionally my rage/sec only goes up around 20%. That doesnt make much sense given how imp WF alone gets close to that number (would get there if not for slams), and we also get over 10% extra crit and hit harder.


Now a recap of most glaring problems:

1) OP is way too low. 5% on other skills can be explained by improper modelling of trinkets i did etc. 20% on OP is too big.

2)I actually dont even have trauma on my dummy build yet I do higher rend ticks (600-620) on dummy with battle shout, then the simulation shows with full raid buffs AND trauma.

3) Even with high priority on OP/MS the use of both skills is very "disappointing", with almost a second added to OP cooldown, and over a sec to MS. Removing Bladestorm seems to help a little, but its still around .75 added to both (i can understand MS, but OP with 6 sec use window should have close to perfect efficiency - EVEN with account for lag).

 

Tankietka

I found the source of this - some bugs around dualwielding - it is now corrected, link has been updated.

Thanks for all these findings :-)

 

Tankietka

@Shaa

As for damage values - I will check it with my character. As for Rend damage - isn't it the case of Above 75% HP bonus?

Regarding use of skills - I'm not sure what do you mean by this. Do you expect that all MSs and Overpowers will be used as often as their cooldown time allows?

 

Shha

Well MS should be used with 0.5/1.0 delay depending whether there is overpower in rotation or not between uses assuming no simulated latency. That is with highest priority on it.

As for overpower - basically yes, it should be used every 6 seconds - because remember its the proc that has 6 sec cooldown, not overpower (which has 1). That means you should use rend at least once per 2 ticks of rend (there is no way to get more then double rend ticks per overpower if you really use it properly. Lower use of overpower can be a result of bad rend uptime (you have 95% which seems good), or sometimes you can have more overpowers then double the ticks (if you have gaps), but never less. In your simulation i regularly get around 44k vs 95k ratio for 30000s fights for example. Thats a considerable loss, on something that really does NOT get lost in normal play (its not even affected by lag really).

At first I thought it was because of Bladestorm (in reality Bladestorm is used so it doesnt cut OP procs - and if you prioritize it below overpower it shouldnt - since if you have OP down and use bladestorm, even if you get another proc it will still be usable). However while the effect is there, its much lower then some delay from MS/Execute that somehow spoil it. What i think might happen now (although its a guess), is that your TfB mechanics are broken. If you put it at top priority it actually gets used properly, but then it reduces Execute/MS damage the way it shouldnt. Not sure how much work it is, but overpower should be made usable for 6 seconds in first free GCD (and possibly made a priority after 4.5 sec of uptime). Right now either it gets reset after 3 seconds it seems (so maybe next tick of rend REMOVES existing tfb), or the cooldown on TfB starts after usage of OP , and not the proc pop up.

As for Rend - Its not hard to count the "rend power". For example with Betrayer and 5000 AP the power of rend would be

(380+756+5000/14*3.4)*1.2(imp rend)*1.3(Trauma)*1.1(Wrecking Crew)*(1.04*1.06 POSSIBLY 2h spec/blood frenzy - there were some posts suggesting it wouldnt apply which i cant find now, so ill count without it)=794*5ticks.

Your sheet shows 531 (without hp buffs on but i didnt count them either).

I think i might have accidentally found the mistake you did though . On my first calculation i came with exactly the number from your sheet - the mistake i found later i made, was to skip weapon speed in the rend equation:

I used 380+(mwb+MWB)/2 + 5000/14 instead of 380+(mwb+MWB)/2 +5000/14*MWS

 

Tankietka

Let's simulate simple OP-MS-Slam priority list.
We would have

0.0 TfB proc
0.0 OP
1.0 MS
2.5 Slam
4.0 Slam
5.5 last free gcd before TfB - currently priority list in DPSSim tries to do something even on this gcd, for example Slam

Case 1 - we are using slam at 5.5
5.5 Slam
6.0 TfB proc but we are in GCD from last Slam so we cannot use OP immediately
7.0 MS
8.5 OP

So we had second OP used 8.5s after first, and second MS 6s after first.

Case 2 - we are not using anything at 5.5
6.0 TfB proc
6.0 MS
7.5 OP

Now, we indeed have second MS exactly 5s after first, but second OP is 7.5s after first one.

Currently DPSSim would try to use gcd at 5.5 leading to case 1 as you observed. I will try to add in the future new conditions for priority list actions that will make simulating case 2 possible.

As for number of OP uses vs. Rend ticks - can you send me priority list and stats you are using while getting 44k vs. 95k ratio? I've tried to repeat it but constantly have OP hits*2 > Rend ticks results.

I found bug in Rend damage calculations - I divided part of base equation by two - have no idea why, maybe some old version of Rend damage from WotLK ptrs. I also compared effects to what I get on live on dummy - seems like neither 2h spec nor Wrecking Crew influences Rend, while Blood Frenzy is. Probably will have to do more tests when 3.1 ships.

 

Tankietka

DPSSim has been updated:

- SEP values can now be automatically calculated - see SEP panel for details
- simulation of several procs added (you can choose for example proc on Mirror of Truth or Grim Toll trinket) - check Procs panel

ArP is still simulated as multiplicative, with 25% bonus comparing to pre 3.1. Buggy implementation which is on live servers is not copied!

 

levk

Could you elaborate a bit on the SEP panel; what is 'Delta' and what should I put in there? Results vary wildly depending on what I put there and I don't know what it is.

Also, if I'm understanding this right, the answer you get for SEP means that (1 STR) * (NUMBER) ~ (1 STAT), if that's correct it's the inverse of what would be intuitive to me at least. If it's an established convention to express things this way then forget I said anything.

 

Tankietka

Unfortunately simulation isn't best to calculate SEP, exactly because of variations in DPS values that comes out of it. Delta is the difference between base value of given stat and that for which DPS will be calculated which in turn will be compared to base DPS allowing more or less to calculate how much DPS increase will given stat give when increased.

The best way to limit fluctuations is to use long fight times and/or many repetitions to average results. As for delta, the default values should generally be OK, as they usually mean big enough change to result in visible increase in DPS.

SEP value in my understanding means "increasing given stat by 1 will increase my DPS by SEP fraction of DPS increase given by 1 point of strength".

For example let's assume that 1 point of strength increases my DPS by 10.
If crit rating has SEP=0.7, it means that increasing my crit rating by 1 will increase my DPS by 0.7*10=7.
If ArP rating has SEP=1.2, increasing my ArP rating by 1 will increase my DPS by 1.2*10=12.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Tankietka

DPSSim updated:

- corrected bug in SEP calculations for dualwielding
- updated ArP calculations formula
- updated rage generation formula

As usual any kind of testing of changes and bug reports are welcomed.

 

Tankietka

DPSSim updated:

- update for patch 3.1.3: Blood Frenzy 3/6% -> 5/10% haste, Bloodthirst cooldown and rage cost reduced
- added new procs from Ulduar trinkets