My apologies if this was posted earlier in this thread.
Does the talent "Vitality" show the 6 expertise on your characters tool tip? I'm trying to figure out what rating or percentage I need to hit the soft cap on bosses with the talent "Vitality". Is the cap still 6.5% for dodges and 14% for parries.
Thanks for any info.
I'm surprised someone with dual spec is asking this. You'd notice the difference if you tried to go Fury with protection gear on. To answer your question Vitality is shown in your character info tab. As for expertise dodge is 6.5% and parry is around 14% but it's really hard to reach the expertise needed to be parry immune without [Mark of Norgannon]
I'm surprised someone with dual spec is asking this. You'd notice the difference if you tried to go Fury with protection gear on. To answer your question Vitality is shown in your character info tab. As for expertise dodge is 6.5% and parry is around 14% but it's really hard to reach the expertise needed to be parry immune without [Mark of Norgannon]
Thank you for the reply. I have been away from the game for about 8 months and forgot a lot of specific stat info . I started playing again a few days ago and just purchased the dual spec ability yesterday.
I'm going to go back and read this thread from page one on.
Just tie it to multiple talents then, it doesn't really matter. Emergency abilities with a CD greater than 2 minutes will not work anymore because the game has changed. Many burst abilities are on a predictable timer, usually 1 minute so you can alternate CDs only if they are at 2 mins.
(Btw, did you know that the gender of your Warrior is incompatible with the name you gave him? <_<)
Well, I'm just saying from a design perspective, I wouldn't think they would make a talent that good.
(Hup, I never realized. I never saw the word when I was actually taking the language lol.)
Shield Block - Block value increase no longer contributes to Shield Slam damage, but now increases threat generated by Shield Slam by 100%.
Latest Prot change. Now we have more threat bonus scaling instead of dps. PTR though so subject to change. Personally I'm hoping they revert the block value change since that won't benefit PvE warriors anyway, so they don't have to make this shield block change for PvP reasons.
Latest Prot change. Now we have more threat bonus scaling instead of dps. PTR though so subject to change. Personally I'm hoping they revert the block value change since that won't benefit PvE warriors anyway, so they don't have to make this shield block change for PvP reasons.
It's a band-aid fix for what was a band-aid fix in the first place. Really hoping they revert this as well, because all they are doing with these "fixes" is hurting us even more.
Tank
2 piece: Decreases the cooldown on your Taunt ability by 2.0 sec and increases the damage done by your Devastate ability by 5%.
Change for the better in T9 set bonus. Makes devastate buffing bit more interesting. From the wording I guess the bonus applies to bonus dmg from sunders as well, not just the weapon dmg portion.
* Agility: The amount of agility required per percentage of dodge has been increased by 15%. This change required recalibrating the amount of dodge a player has with 0 agility by a slight amount as well, so all players will see their dodge percentage vary a small amount.
* Dodge Rating: The amount of dodge rating required per percentage of dodge has been increased by 15%. This is before diminishing returns. Combined with other changes, this makes dodge rating and parry rating equally potent before diminishing returns apply.
* Parry Rating: The amount of parry rating required per percentage of parry has been reduced by 8%. This is before diminishing returns. Combined with other changes, this makes dodge rating and parry rating equally potent before diminishing returns apply. Parry still diminishes more quickly than dodge.
OK the dodge changes are probably because they are fearing 3.3 becoming the second sunwell for tanks. What makes no sense is their buff to Parry. Since it still diminishes faster than Dodge there is not a single reason to take it over Dodge. As for the Shield Block change a DPS nerf was the last thing we needed. Obviously we are not the only class getting nerfed because of PvP but they really haven't thought of this quite well. The only way to get those numbers are while stacking SBV, no tank with a sane mind will stack SBV for Ulduar so overall a PvE tank will not gain any major damage increase from the SBV change but will be hurt by the Shield Block change.
The Shield Block change is quite a big nerf for Prot Warrior PvE DPS. I can understand the PvP reasoning but it does hurt us in PvE. Innate threat values when the new thing in Wrath is "Tank DPS --> Tank TPS" is dumb. 100% additional innate threat on Shield Block is even dumber. On top of that, it is quite a huge burst AoE threat nerf since Damage Shield is tied to our Block Value as well and Warrior AoE threat wasn't really that hot to begin with...
Devastate is still shit as ever so yeah, I hope they got something coming as compensation.
The avoidance change is quite stupid as well. The current method of gearing is just stacking Stamina anyway which is quite boring since it is the only option. Now in 3.2 they make sure that we don't even consider avoidance gearing at all. On top of that we can probably expect a (slight) boss damage nerf across the board just like they did when they gave avoidance diminishing returns.
Sigh, you'd think the Devs would learn from their mistakes, but the avoidance nerf and the innate threat "buff" seems to indicate otherwise.
On top of that, it is quite a huge burst AoE threat nerf since Damage Shield is tied to our Block Value as well and Warrior AoE threat wasn't really that hot to begin with...
Correct me if I am wrong but Damage Shield shouldn't be affected at all. Shield Block should still double our Block Value but it just doesn't boost SS anymore rather than increase its threat. It should still increase Damage Shield.
Correct me if I am wrong but Damage Shield shouldn't be affected at all. Shield Block should still double our Block Value but it just doesn't boost SS anymore rather than increase its threat. It should still increase Damage Shield.
Ah yes, I am an idiot. ><
On a different note, does anyone know what they mean with the new Berserker Rage entry in the patchnotes?
Berserker Rage now removes and grants immunity to Fear, Sap, and Incapacitate effects and generating extra rage for when taking damage for 10 seconds.
The current Berserker Rage already does this (pulled from WoWhead):
Immune to Fear, Sap and Incapacitate effects. Generating extra rage when taking damage.
and it also removes current fears, saps and incapacitates on you even if you didn't use it proactively.
It's a band-aid fix for what was a band-aid fix in the first place. Really hoping they revert this as well, because all they are doing with these "fixes" is hurting us even more.
That is kinda a big issue here, and you hit it on the head. The Shield Block change is a pretty shallow, short-term band-aid to keep people from using gimmick sets to abuse the other band-aid to Block Value on items that no Warrior will actually see any benefit from with any practical, realistic PvE set.
The biggest problem with the change is that it undermines the earlier changes in the patch. Although I posted on the last page that the Devastate buff was pretty minor in terms of DPS/TPS, at least it was an increase.
However, I'm rather certain that this change to Shield Slam damage will actually be a bigger reduction in DPS than the Devastate buff was an increase. So, at present, our DPS is actually going to be lower post-3.2 than it was pre-3.2. Considering that's about the opposite of what needed to happen in PvE, it's rather unfortunate.
By my quick calculations, the Shield Block change results in a loss of 70-80 DPS on average with normal gear whereas the Devastate buff only increases DPS by around 50. So, at present, we're sitting at a net loss of 20-30 DPS compared to live.
Even though I will miss the high Shield Slam crits in the battlegrounds (on the rare occasion when I PvP'ed while Prot specced), I'm pretty sure this can be seen as a simultaneous TPS buff and a DPS nerf. The only thing left is to calculate the magnitude of both:
Shield Slam DPS Comparison
Assuming you have the shield block meta and the blocking glyph (+10% block value for 10 sec after a shield slam) one gets as the relevant shield block value (affecting shield slams)
Pre 3.2
100% initial block value (from block and STR) + 5% (meta) + 10% (glyph) + 30% (talented Shield Mastery) + 100% (Shield Block effecting initial block value) = 245 % of the basic shield block value as derived from block and STR
Post 3.2:
100% initial block value (from block and STR) + 5% (meta) + 10% (glyph) + 30% (talented Shield Mastery) = 145 %
All other Shield Slam enhancing effects act the same (BoK, 1h spec, encounter specific damage buffs).
145/245 = 59%, i.e. shield slam DPS post patch is 0.59 times of shield slam DPS pre patch *while* shield block is active. When shield block is not used both DPS values are the same. With 4 piece T9 bonus shield block uptime is capped at 1/3. As such the mean Shield Slam DPS is going down from a value of
2/3 * 1 (shield block not active) + 1/3 * 2.45 (shield block active) = 1.48 to a value of
2/3 * 1 (shield block not active) + 1/3 * 1.45 (shield block active) = 1.15
Shield Slam DPS is going to be 1.15/1.48=78% of shield slam DPS before 3.2
This is without considering the buffs to shield block value on items (and neglecting the innate Shield Slam damage). But as this is a highly fluctuating stat, depending on personal gearing preferances and encounter specific details, I'm not going to try to assess this change. Lets just say the effective shield slam DPS is going to be >= 78% of Shield Slam DPS, if shield block would not have been changed.
Shield Slam TPS comparison (lets make this brief)
Pre 3.2:
100% + 5% + 10% + 30% + 100% = 245%
Post 3.2:
(100% + 5% + 10% + 30%)*2 = 290%
290/245 = 118%, i.e. Shield Slam will produce 118% the threat after the patch, when shield block is active. On average this changes Shield Slam threat from 2/3*1+1/3*2.45=1.48 to 2/3*1+1/3*2.9=1.63. A plus of 1.63/1.48 - 1 = 10%
Again the buff to shield block values and the basic Shield Slam value not included for sake of simplicity.
Summary: The change to shield block not affecting shield slams will raise the shield slam TPS by at least 10%, while the DPS goes down by 22% at most.
@Liar: The blizzard quotes regarding innate threat values were in the context of absolute and constant threat values, which were not scaling with gear and tier upgrades at all. While the change to shield block is a constant value it is perfectly scaling with all upgrades you may collect in the process of WotLK from a threat perspective.
Besides being a dps loss it was a really fun mechanic to "supercharge" your shield slam for some extra burst. In a PvE raid setting I'd get 5.5-6.5k crits from shield slam with shield block up, which isn't overpowered at all, but thanks to the double block value buff making full block value set overpowered in pvp, we get changed on a pretty drastic pve mechanic and it's a bit annoying that they'd make this change and give us more "innate threat" when most of us want to go the complete opposite way. However maybe this will make way for a change to double block value on shields and from strength now too, but I doubt it as it'd affect paladins EH way more.
I'm not being too optimistic about seeing any dps buffs, and certainly not any heroic strike changes, as heroic strike would be a pretty hefty change affecting all 3 specs, I'd think that it would be up on PTR early so we could test it properly since they knew it was an issue back in January.
@Liar: The blizzard quotes regarding innate threat values were in the context of absolute and constant threat values, which were not scaling with gear and tier upgrades at all. While the change to shield block is a constant value it is perfectly scaling with all upgrades you may collect in the process of WotLK from a threat perspective.
That isn't strictly accurate, however. Shield Slam has a pretty substantial innate component, which will now be doubled. So, Warriors will be balanced around the increased magnitude of the static threat values.
As Shield Slam has both an innate threat value of 770 and an innate damage component of 1015, there will be at the very least (770 + 1015) * 2.0735 * 2 = 7402 non-scaling threat from a Shield Slam with Shield Block up, which is a pretty huge amount.
Block Value is a minority component of Shield Slam threat, as it represents a bit less than half of the total threat generated by the ability.
@Jayde:
And how is the new shield block mechanic "100% more threat" less scaling than the old one "increased damage because of increased shield block value" (but less than 100% more, because only basic block and STR values were doubled)?
Precisely because shield slam has innate threat and damage components, the new mechanic scales better than the old one. "100% more threat" (as I read the change) covers more than "double block value (derived from basic block and STR)".
EDIT: Now I get your point. Because Shield Slam threat will be higher, this single threat component as such will be more dominant and less connected to gear upgrades. While the later part remains to be seen (if block value really stays irrelevant as it is ... I do not think this is a given fact), I see your point now.
@Jayde:
And how is the new shield block mechanic "100% more threat" less scaling than the old one "increased damage because of increased shield block value" (but less than 100% more, because only basic block and STR values were doubled)?
Precisely because shield slam has innate threat and damage components, the new mechanic scales better than the old one. "100% more threat" (as I read the change) covers more than "double block value (derived from basic block and STR)".
EDIT: Now I get your point. Because Shield Slam threat will be higher, this single threat component as such will be more dominant and less connected to gear upgrades. While the later part remains to be seen (if block value really stays irrelevant as it is ... I do not think this is a given fact), I see your point now.
The scaling is the same, but the raw amount of innate threat is higher than before as Shield Block never previously touched it. Therefore the ratio of scaling vs. non-scaling threat has actually pulled more toward non-scaling than before.
(770 + 1015 + 1500) * 2 Base Threat
Total Base Threat: 6570
Percentage of Block Value threat: 45.6%
So, not only has this decreased our damage (which we didn't want) it also makes Devastate even less comparatively important before due to a 1.2k threat per use increase of Shield Slam (again, something we didn't want) and also slightly reduces the percentage of scaling threat on Shield Slam (didn't want that either!)
All around, it's hard to see this change as being terribly positive, other than the TPS increase which I'm not sure is a great idea when Shield Slam is the most solid and reliable TPS source we have already.
EDIT: Now I get your point. Because Shield Slam threat will be higher, this single threat component as such will be more dominant and less connected to gear upgrades. While the later part remains to be seen (if block value really stays irrelevant as it is ... I do not think this is a given fact), I see your point now.
Yeah, just to elaborate: Innate threat values is lost damage we could have turned into DPS instead if it weren't for hidden threat values. That 770 innate threat of Shield Slam? Could have been a 770 damage buff right there for us which we are missing out on. Thunderclap having a 175% thread modifier (or something like that) could have been in part be turned into damage (obviously, TC hitting for nearly twice the damage it does now might be a problem but they can tweak the damage - and for the love of god, make TC crit for 200% dmg like all other physical abilities!).
I mean, there is a reason Paladins school everyone on damage (and threat most of the time). While being able to completely ignore armor is a part of that, I believe that it is also because they don't have any innate threat modifiers and RF seems to be a lower passive threat multiplier than the other tanks' stances/forms/presences so that is additional damage won on their side to be competitive on TPS. They even removed the additional threat on ShoR when they realized it hit reasonably hard on it's own and for Paladins ShoR is just 'an' ability. Shield Slam for us is iconic so I'd wish they wouldn't screw it up with innate threat and now the retarded Shield Block bandaid.
And yeah, Devastate is still a poor excuse of an ability. It will never happen but they could turn Devastate into a skill that actually gives you rage if they want to keep it's poor damage. That would be handy when OTing but alas, that won't happen.
Why do Warriors carry the stigma of being a hybrid DPS/tank class when no other tank does? It sometimes really feels they won't give us well deserved damage boosts because of our DPS specs and PvP. And seriously, if they had gotten TG right off the bat then Devastate would still be 80% weapon damage now and noone would give a damn about Flurry/Devastate specs.
And for those that like to think that tank DPS or tank DPS --> tank TPS translation does not matter: Think about Hodir buffs, think about Overwhelming Power on Steelbreaker, heck think about the watcher buffs on Yogg Saron. Tank DPS does matter, not only because shit dies faster, but also because we suck at translating the boss specific DPS buffs into TPS if there is so much innate threat on our abilities (and that isn't even addressing the double dipping Paladins and DKs get to do on Hodir due to being caster/melee hybrids).
It seems pretty counterproductive to give more innate threat to abilities and take away DPS from the already lowest DPS tank. The rage gen buff will not affect DPS while main tanking as we are already at or near 100% HS uptime. The dev buff is laughable as it is always the first thing to drop in the rotation with a SnB proc or buff/debuff to reapply.
Whether the innate threat added to SS ends up being a buff or a nerf is more complex than just looking at the damage lost and the doubled threat as we are not getting the extra threat from crits added as innate threat.
Last edited by Sotallytober : 07/08/09 at 1:48 PM.
Reason: Poor proofreading
I’ve been going over the SBV changes to try to identify what SBV is going to be useful for. I haven’t seen too much on these forums to the extent that SBV will be decent or not, so I tried to quantify exactly what it gives us. Mind you this is using entirely ballpark figures.
Using Tankspot’s threat calculator with a random parse from an Emalon encounter my guild did some time ago (just for a nice stationary fight without outside threat mechanics), and it said my shield slam did about 28% of my threat – at about 9500 threat per strike.
Assuming this is normal threat generation (or if this is slightly higher, rolling the threat I didn’t count from damage shield into my overestimation here), in order to gain 1% threat, I must increase SS threat by 1/28 = 3.571% * 9500 = 339.286. This means 339.286 / 2.0735 = 163.63 damage.
Backing out boss armor with sunders and FF (which IIRC is 8089 – about 34.7% mitigation), the damage increase, and hence the SBV increase, to shoot for is 250.52.
Excluding the meta, we get 140% SBV from SBV gained from items – meaning we’d need 178.9 SBV. We also have the shield block uptime of ~25%, during which the amount of threat we gain from SBV doubles. This creates approximately the same as a flat 25% increase, bringing the number we shoot for on gear to receive 1% threat to 143.1 SBV. With the 4-piece T9 bonus, this number drops even lower to 134.5.
Noting that expertise affects a ballpark 95% of our threat, and that around 32.8 expertise gives us 1% less parry, which if we say that about 95% of our hit table is full (for the sake of even numbers), then 32.8 expertise translates into ~ 1% threat as well. This means 143.1 SBV ~ 32.8 expertise, or with 4-piece T9 – 134.5 SBV ~ 32.8 exp.
Now for the mitigation portion. During shield block, each point of SBV from gear blocks 2.4 damage. Assuming the average hit is 15,000 after base shield block values from str and shield are factored in (for the sake of even numbers, mind you this is in the next tier of content), this is .016% damage blocked per point of SBV. Outside of shield block, assuming a 25% block rate, and an average hit size of around 17,000, we get .002% damage blocked per point of SBV. Without 4-piece T9, this is .0055% damage blocked per point of SBV. With 4-piece, this is .00667% damage blocked.
What does this mean? Looking at the 77 SBV from unbreakable chestguard, which is becoming 154 SBV – it means this stat is now roughly equivalent (by my calculations) to:
NOTE: BELOW NUMBERS DO NOT REFLECT THE ADDITION OF AN 'SBV CAP' IN THE LATEST PTR BUILD.
With 4-piece T9
37.55 expertise, 1.027% damage avoidance (~46.36 dodge rating, with the added 15%)
Without 4-piece T9
35.3 expertise, .0847% damage avoidance (38.23 dodge rating, with the added 15%)
Of course, when the size of hits scales up again, the avoidance value will drop drastically. Still, fairly solid numbers imo, unless I’m misunderstanding something essential about the game mechanics or the proposed changes. Does this look about like the rest of you are expecting, or am I doing something wrong?
EDIT: With the SBV cap, values change to:
With 4-piece T9
24.78 expertise, 1.027% damage avoidance (~46.36 dodge rating, with the added 15%)
Without 4-piece T9
23.3 expertise, .0847% damage avoidance (38.23 dodge rating, with the added 15%)
Last edited by Casstor : 07/14/09 at 11:05 AM.
Reason: New PTR build
By my quick calculations, the Shield Block change results in a loss of 70-80 DPS on average with normal gear whereas the Devastate buff only increases DPS by around 50. So, at present, we're sitting at a net loss of 20-30 DPS compared to live.
I think it's probably a little worse if you were timing your shieldblocks to coincide with other damage multipliers like grim toll/mjolnir procs, ToTT (at the start of a fight), overwelming power, stormpower, etc.
Casstor, your numbers aren't super far off, but the Expertise modeling is a little simple.
I'll use DPS factors since we've talked a lot about DPS and this change primarily impacts that.
With my current gear:
15.38 Block Value is worth roughly 5 DPS fully raid buffed
10 Expertise Rating is worth roughly 16 DPS
10 Hit Rating is worth 9 DPS
10 Strength is worth around 5 DPS as well
Given those factors, 77 Block Value is worth 25 DPS. Double that and it's 50 DPS. That is equvalent to around 31.25 Expertise Rating.
In item budget terms, after the buff Block Value is doubled it's technically the 2nd best stat for DPS improvement, slightly above Hit Rating. However, it remains the weakest mitigation stat per item budget even after being doubled other than Strength, which is just a poor man's version of Block Value in terms of mitigation.
So, honestly, as a splash stat it's not terrible but there is no compelling reason to use it as a mitigation or progression stat. It's still way too weak.
Considering it already takes a pretty large chunk of itemization budget to get Expertise capped to begin with and given that it's the most efficient all-around way to increase TPS/DPS, it doesn't leave much room for Block Value other than a splash stat on the occasional item.
I think instead of increase threat on SS they should increase the amount of overall threat we gain when in Defensive stance or just remove the dmg penalty we gain while in D stance. I know we want to do more dmg but it's hard to balance it out because of pvp aspect of the game.
07/06/09, 10:43 PM
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