But carrying extra glyphs of cleaving for AoE tanking suggests something is wrong doesn't it? At least to me it does.

Anyway's what do you all think of the increase proc chance of critical block from 10/20/30% to 20/40/60%? Should help on our DTPS, but does nothing for the worse case scenario of an unmitigated hit at all.

Not really. Cleaving 3 adds is nothing like Swipe hitting everything, even stuff behind you, without ragestarving you. I am pretty sure it's more threat as well which on it's own is fine. We aren't supposed to hold aggro with just Cleave. We got Thunderclap and Shockwave for that. But unfortunately those 2 abilities do fall behind on sustained AoE threat.


@Gellor
The Critical Block buff is not going to do anything for us since it's not realiable. Even if it was a 100% chance to crit block we still don't block every swing like a Paladin would so it's no EH buff as you said.

Unless they change Critical Block to 100% when Shield Block is up I don't see the talent being taken seriously. It's double RNG that can reduce up to 5k per swing making the damage too spikey to consider it EH. It still doesn't promote shield block gear either. Especially since shield block on gear is instead of threat stats or double avoidance stats that are much better. The main problem is that unlike paladins we need both Block Rating and Block Value to make it worth while and the cost is too high to achieve that.

The main problem with warriors is that we have too many stats to take care of. Defense, Armor, Dodge, Parry, Block, Shield Block, Hit, Expertise, Stamina. No other class, let alone tanking class, has to worry about so much at the same time. Blizzard hates to admit that warrior design is obsolete when compared to other tanks. It needs a major overhaul.

I am going to have to disagree you. You are missing the fact that new 4 piece gives a lower downtime on shield block.... If you are in all BiS with hardmode gear then the tier pieces are better because of a few reasons. The items you will already be using reguardless are gloves and shoulders no matter what you try to argue. The helm which is BiS for EH given the only other helm is ilvl 245 the EH the block value will provide with new Critical Block WAY outweighs the amount of expertise you gain from using the other helm. Your at 3/4 already just going off EH itemization, and the chest which is also extremely good for avoidance however not BiS... but the 4 piece you gain from using those pieces the EH goes way up from the offset items. You overlooked other aspects of the itemization from the talent. As I explained in the other thread the best gear set you can make intails those 4 items with the hardmode legs from Jaraxxus. Block Value becomes the same thing as EH when shield block is up the fact that they are doubling the amount that ours scales now is a decient change, but it still does not give a long term solution. The itemization is still awful for ToC. There is hardly any gear itemized for block value which makes the talent change more average when we need some type of stronger buff from a mitigation standpoint.

Block Value does not increase our normal EH because it is not reliable. Anything that increases BV falls under the same category unless we can block every unavoided hit.

The problem of calling BV EH is that it's only there 10 seconds out of 30 seconds even with the set bonus. There is a reason people don't just average out the mitigation provided by Shield Wall and call it EH because EH just doesn't work like that.

The 4set tier bonus is amazing. It provides huge mitagation over longer fights AND allows you to get more threat out of your shield slam. It's a win-win in both aspects of tanking. Not to mention this scales very well with critical block, and damage shield, for the extra threat and mitagation. I really think people under estimate how awsome this set bonus really is over long tank and spank fights, which, let's face it, most of ToC is.
Granted, this set bonus relies on alot of block on gear to truely shine, but if anyone takes a little bit of extra hp or avoidance over this bonus, they deserve to be shot.

I would say it's quite good, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it amazing.

Block is still a small proportion of damage, even with Shield Block up and even considering the Critical Block change. It is still not all that viable to 'stack' Block at the significant expense of health or avoidance.

Although the changes are nice, they are minor in the current raid environment. Against the current realm of bosses, the Critical Block change alone is really only going to reduce damage taken overall by 1% or maybe 2%.

This is also ignoring that a large portion of the damage taken in TotC is not physical and not blockable. The Impale bursts are too high on Gormok for Block to make a significant difference, the Worms have huge amounts of magical burst (with the channeled spews), Anub's freezing slash takes avoidance out of the picture during his burst periods, and the other bosses have large amounts of magical damage as part of the fight.

So, while it is nice to have the set bonus and updated Critical Block, it's not really game changing nor does it really address any of the core problems we have compared to, say, Druids or Paladins.

The 4pc is far from amazing, an amazing 4pc is something like the DK dps 4pc. Ours is certainly not something that you rush towards getting. Sure i might eventually obtain it due to the 258 t9 helm being a nice upgrade from the 245 badge helm and then i might as well snag the 258 t9 chest for the 4pc. I certainly would have preferred a 4pc that was worth while to obtain like other classes from the get go with the 245 tier rather than something you stumble across because the tier pieces at 258 are nice and you might as well get the 4pc while you're at it.

My conditions of testing were fairly diverse, covering Uld 10 & 25, some entry level raids like Naxx and OS, heroics and some normal instance and lowbie instance runs. At the time I was enjoying a casual raiding guild. They didn’t care about my spec testing and we were only downing Mimiron on Uld 10 and a couple of keepers in Uld 25. I was MT for most fights.

I started off testing with somthing like this:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Then I gradually shaved a point off FR each spec until I had this spec:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Then I went back and tried out 2/5 ss with 3/3FR:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I spent about 3-5 days with each spec, except the last. I covered at least one Uld raid, one entry level raid (Naxx, OS, Vault) and at least 5 Heroics with each spec.

My main focus was to have versatility and utility. 5/5 SS had just been handed to us, and I was amazed at the effect it had on game play. Holding aggro was not an issue or a real consideration. I was mainly looking at how to maximise output and to make best use of a world without rage starvation.

I remembered being able to output higher levels of dps (compared to dps’ers) in instances while levelling 70-80; and that the contribution we made to dps early on was gradually reduced (compared to others) as gear increased in raids. I also aimed to have more utility to be able to do more when not main tanking; casting buffs, debuffs, intervene, picking up loose adds.

3/3FR is something that I still consider to be essential. Yes there is so much incoming damage in ToC and Uld that you are awash with rage for most parts of most fights. However, there are still many times during each fight and in particular fights where having a cost reduction on offensive abilities pays off.

In Uld: chained down Razorscale, OT razorscale when the other tank picks him up, dps on XT’s heart, Hodir’s casting time, MT Freya (hits like a girl), Cat Ladys casting time, No arms on Kologarn, Mimeron in 2nd phase, OT Thorim when the other tank picks him up, General Vs casting time, Offtanking that little dwarf guy in Iron council and having to interrupt & stun, Offtanking any boss or adds , etc

In ToC: Dps on a wall-stunned Icehowl, OT Icehowl, Jarax’s casting time (especially when you need enough rage to help interrupt), “tanking” any of the faction champions (particularly because they rarely try to hit you), twins when they cast twins pact or any other special ability, and Anub when he starts to submerge. Or even just in general because with avoidance streaks 5 rage isnt much and I can go under 10 rage a few times during each fight.

You could debate how important any of that is, but I like to contribute as much as I can.

If I really wanted to loosen some points up then I would take 3 from 5/5SS then 3/3FR. Why? Because if you’re only going to MT end game bosses, you still get the vast majority of your rage from being hit and not from 5 rage on avoidance. 5/5 SS is the most useful when OT adds or in lower instances from Naxx down. If you are OT on adds for Jarax or Anub I would definately keep it.

That being said I still have 5/5SS because there are still times when avoidance streaks happen; I currently have a lot of dodge and parry. Block doesn’t count because you still receive a bulk of rage from the dmg that passes through, plus the 5 rage. That kind of makes block a little more valuable (just a little).

Since ToC, has anyone else noticed a drop in gear with Hit and Expertise? And has anyone noticed the increase in item level budget being spent on more strength then previously? Maybe bliz is trying to reduce our need for too many stats, taking away hit and expertise and replacing with bulk strength. I’m not sure I like this.

It's been my experience that they reacted to complaints about there being too much Hit in Ulduar gear (especially early Ulduar progression gear was awash with it) and taken a step back there. However, there does seem to be a lot more Expertise flying around--especially on certain pieces. You can basically get up to 30+ Expertise with 2-3 of the correct pieces.

Part of the reason we don't "have to think about upgrades" is because there is no consensus on how to make tradeoffs between stats. Sure, most of us say that we value things like stam and armor highly, and things like block rating much lower, but in reality the decisions we make are often the flavor of "Would I rather have 15 stamina or 20 dodge rating?" These questions are nontrivial to answer for tanks. Simply because most choose a metric of "Which one has the higher stam?" doesn't mean that's always the correct metric to choose.

What I'm saying is - the reason your dps sets involve spreadsheets is because there are spreadsheets which are attainable for your dps spec. For your tanking spec, if a spreadsheet were attainable, it would require:

1. Different calculations for each "relevant" encounter.
2. Adequate healing assumptions.
3. Appropriate threat/survival tradeoffs.

Tanks are simple, yes. We're either alive and with aggro, alive without aggro, or dead, and our job is to be the first option as often as is possible.

But make no mistake - gearing a tank is not a simple, thoughtless thing, especially when your BiS varies from fight-to-fight. The only reason we don't have spreadsheets is because there would be a lot of info to sift through, and because the community has not agreed on not only which stats are optimal, but how optimal they are. If you're not considering this when you make your gearing choices, you're not optimizing, and if you're not optimizing, then of course it's going to be easier. The only exception here is if you're deciding between different levels of gear. And in this regard, gearing your dps spec is generally just as easy.

Wrong thread, please delete.

Uh... you DO have a spreadsheet to work with. And a Rawr model to work with. And Simcraft. There are tools, calculations, to help compare items and to make the most out of your gearing.

Imagine this situation. You have two stats that must be capped for optimum tanking performance. You have a Resilience stat and a Defense stat. The Resilience stat will stave off a 6.5% of a "Crushing Blow", which deals 1.5 times the normal damage amount. The Defense stat will stave off a 5.6% chance of a "Critical Hit", which deals twice the normal amount. Now, imagine that this Resil stat has ZERO value above the Crushing cap, and the Defense stat will return NO or LOW value above the Critical cap, one par with Block Value. These are totally separate from your "flavor" stats (whatever you choose to lean towards for a given encounter), as these have to really be met at any given point to do any sort of tanking. Congratulations, your tank now works under the same general concepts of DPS Warrior with relation to Hit and Expertise. Your optimization now must take into account these specific stat caps. Resil above the cap is wasted, so you're wasting itemization points on something that provides no benefit. Defense above the cap is either wasted, or may as well be, depending on if you're trying to "roleplay" this situation as comparing Tanking to Arms or DPS.

(There's a hundred different holes that can be shot in this analogy, but please take from it the point I'm aiming for, not a literal comparison of how tanks and DPS differ at the fundamental level, and even technical details that may have been alluded to.)

I'm not saying that gearing a tank is mindless, or easy. What I'm saying is that it is enormously more simple in terms of caps. Once you hit 540 Defense, the world is your oyster, and you can now choose to optimize your stats however you like for any given situation. DPS always has to deal with two separate but important caps, and that really hurts the flexibility of gearing a DPS in relation to a tank. I can eyeball a piece of tank gear and compare it to what I'm currently wearing, and pretty much know how it stands. For DPS gear, those two separate capping stats are a major pain to constantly keep meeting, every time you get even just one new piece of gear.

Yep, that's what I meant. Plus you can largely ignore the hit or expertise caps as threat is not tightly tuned. It's not like for dps where you have to get your caps exactly right. If threat was an issue on most encounters, then tanks would have to consider the trade off of survival stats and threat stats a bit more - this would be a good start in my opinion.

The arguement of avoidance versus mitigation would be more pertinent if avoidance was stronger, but there were more encounters where it was less useful (for example Anub'arak MT duty). As it is, I don't think any tank seriously aims for avoidance - as in, uses avoidance trinkets and gems. Of course, if it was a lot stronger we would just have another Sunwell gearing situation, and if it was strong on some fights and weak on others, we would have to collect twice as much gear to be optimal.

The hit and expertise caps are not exactly hard to reach however. Also they are not at all tightly tuned for dps either, being at 7.9% hit does not mean that your dps will drop by half. You should of course try to get above the caps, but mindless gearing to get to those caps is not good either. I.e. if you have a piece of gear with 30 str and can get one with 20 hit (and is below the hit cap) you should know that the strength piece is the better option regardless of the cap. I don't think it's that hard to gear for either dps or tanking, the one exception being ArP, due to the large amount of factors that come into play with it.

The one cap that is extremely tightly tuned is the def cap (I suspect that is the reason we will be given talent crit reduction in Cataclysm). If you're not def capped you will wipe a raid sooner or later (and likely sooner, because Murphy's law very much applies to this ). If you're 0.1% shy of the hitcap as dps the ~0.1% lesser dps you will do will not wipe the raid.

There is a tank spreadsheet but it has some drawbacks. As Casstor pointed out the importance of different stats will change a lot from fight to fight so the sheet needs accurate boss models. The current sheet has some models but those models are from before 3.1.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. We keep separate sets to optimize EH, avoidance, "Burst Time" (if you believe such a thing to be worthwhile), and other metrics. If you're "eyeballing" a piece of gear and finding your decision to be easy, either you aren't considering all the implication behind your choice, or you are looking at two vastly different pieces of gear, because the choice is decidedly not simple for tanks.

DPS always have and always will have one thing to optimize: DPS. Tanking is always trying to optimize one thing: the probability of living through an encounter without dropping aggro. However, whereas DPS is easy to calculate based on gear (given the detail can be complex - the calculation is straightforward) the probability stated here is definitely, definitely not.

This is why, as I see it, we use such counterintuitive statistics to approximately optimize this probability. If your argument is that "you have two caps, we have one - therefore ours is eaiser", then I think you are mistakenly assuming that caps make things more difficult. Uncapped stats whose utility varies widely based on fight mechanics, and whose utility is generally quite difficult to calculate without understanding every detail of each boss mechanic (such as "does block damage get taken out before or after being multiplied?", "can this special be dodged or parried?", "does this special take armor into account?", etc. ), I hope we can agree, is a great deal more complicated.

If you are dealing with hypotheticals, then yes the decision making process should be hard, but if you look at Coliseum loot, say waist slot items, then it is not hard to tell at a glance what is the best item. You would pick the heroic 25 man belt every time, and taking it would not force you to regem your other items, or swap different items in, you would simply take it and gem it full of stamina. A DPS warrior has harder choices to make - not only are there a few plate belts but leather and mail are options, and taking one will possibly mean you have to regem to maintain the hit, expertise or ARP caps, it may also mean you should change items in another slot to compensate, or you need to plan to get a different drop for another slot than you had originally. It might even not be possible for the dps warrior to equip their BiS belt right away because they would lose dps unless they could get another drop first. Prots can always equip right away.

I am not saying that prot warrior gearing is not difficult to understand - the stats are fairly counterintuitive: block value for example, and there are a few instances where there is some fight mechanic such as the ones you listed that radically change item weightings, but except for making an unhittable set, the best belt is still the highest ilvl one, and the best gems are still stamina (and you aren't likely to regem for specific boss fights anyway). I just think that without the need to balance stats, and without many fights where there is a need to gear for threat, avoidance, or block specifically, most tanks would pick the same gearset quite easily given a basic understanding of the mechanics behind the class.

If there is little need for aoivdance, block, or threat stats, then by process of elimination, the only stat we have left to maximize is EH. I don't think this does tanking justice. Also, bear in mind that the slim selection of items is symptomatic of the current environment, and not of tanking in general. In icecrown there will hopefully be more than one tanking belt. Also, it should be noted that Blizzard has stated that dps warriors still wanting leather or mail gear is a design problem - not a class feature.

Also, your statement above still reflects the wrong idea - that more items to choose from makes itemizing more difficult. Given stat weights, you can filter wowhead and choose a Best-in-slot set quite quickly (or simply look at someone else's choices online), regardless of how many pieces there are to choose from, because your stats are well understood and the stats you need do not change from fight to fight.

This really isn't true. It depends on what you're trying to do. I definitely swap into lower ilvl gear for certain fights or switch items around. There are situations where you may want to be using a ToC10 heroic item over a ToC25 heroic item (particularly when it comes to hit rating). There's 2 options for just about every slot you can wear and sometimes the lower ilvl item is better for a fight than the 258 item.

I definitely went to a spreadsheet to min/max the gear I'm using for anub as a single-tank for the adds. That's an extreme case because of the fight mechanics, but that doesn't mean we don't min/max or make gear swaps from one fight to the next. Dealing with the DR on avoidance pretty much requires a spreadsheet for gearing decisions after a certain point if you're really trying to min/max. Just because we don't have a "meter" that everyone gloats over like dps, doesn't mean there aren't metrics you should be watching as a tank.

Well, "Burst Time" is a pretty warrented mathematical approach to dealing with extending survival time in a very logical way once minimum health thresholds have been met. It's certainly going to be more accurate than the 'just stack XYZ' or 'just eyeball it' approaches many tanks take, simply because it actually has a foundation in a logical relationship between stamina, avoidance, and hit size.

See: The power of avoidance (preliminary results) - TankSpot

Anyhow, I'm not totally sure what the point being made is? Do we have too many stats? Yes, absolutely. We covered that on the 2nd or 3rd page of this thread I think. Additionally, all the various DR caps and curves as well as the catch-all of Defense applying differently based on the value of Block in a given fight is very complex without using tools or spreadsheets.

That said, I wouldn't say DPS is very easy to gear for nowadays either. Especially for Warriors, relying on spreadsheets is more or less required to know how to properly gear. Fury is a royal pain to gear for, Arms slightly better but still quite variable.

I have two sets, obviously, as I have an Arms off-spec and I can't say either one is more or less difficult to gear for. I'd say I put about equal amount of consideration into my gear choice for both. If anything, though, tanks are made a little easier by the much smaller selection of potential items for us--after all, the number of DPS items (especially including all the various types of rings/necks/trinkets out there and Leather/Mail options) far, far outweighs that of tanking.

This isn't always a good thing, though. It's kinda annoying to be 'stuck' with the itemization for a given tier. We're always kinda at the mercy of how tank gear is designed for a given tier, simply because we don't have many alternatives in a number of slots.

As I've said before, I'm not convinced optimizing bust time necessarily optimizes your chance to live through an encounter. That doesn't mean it isn't useful, it just means it isn't necessarily optimal. In particular, I think that linking healing (the "if you dodge an attack, you should expect to be topped off, but if you don't you shouldn't" assumption) with avoidance puts too large a weight on avoidance. The alternative is to model healing as some form of randomly distributed variable with a given mean and standard deviation, and see if your numbers change (mine did).

Of course, that's more of a tangent than anything. The only point being made here was that choosing your tanking set to walk into an encounter with isn't "easy", as was suggested.