I definitely swap into lower ilvl gear for certain fights or switch items around. There are situations where you may want to be using a ToC10 heroic item over a ToC25 heroic item (particularly when it comes to hit rating). There's 2 options for just about every slot you can wear and sometimes the lower ilvl item is better for a fight than the 258 item.
Maybe this will change with Icecrown gear, but as of right now I disagree with the above and I tend to agree with the guy that said you can generally pick your gear by eyeballing it. With the exception of a Block Value set for Anub'arak's Burrowers there's not a lot of decision-making you "really" have to do.
On all the high level Plate Armor currently (232 and above) your choices on picking gear boil down to
You can pretty much look at all the gear and say "Do I want to live longer?" or "Do I want better threat?".
While I agree that there is a choice to make, it's very very rarely a choice between an abundance of approximately equal but varying items. Generally between equal level item levels you have just two choices, max survival or max threat. Across different item levels you have the same choice, but generally the higher item level is just so much better in terms of armor, stamina and strength as well that the choice isn't that hard either. I'd be very interested if someone could demonstrate an example where they're gearing for maximum survival and are struggling between picking a lower item level over a 245 / 258 tanking item that's *not* using stat points on expertise or hit. Or vice versa where they would pick a lower item level piece for threat over a 245 / 258 item that *does* have expertise or hit.
I'll also say that in my experience, even when geared for max survival and not hit capped or soft-capped on expertise, I'm not struggling on threat if the dps gives me a 2 second head start while boss is in melee range so I'm generally always picking gear for maximum survival. The *only* scenario where I sometimes pick a lower level item when I have high level items available is in trinkets. But that's mainly because trinket itemization is rather messed up (+170 stamina vs 1792 armor & extra dodge 20sec/2min. I pick Stamina.
For the people saying "I often have to pick lower item level gear for a fight" please give examples. I can see it for trinkets, and I can see if if you're doing a block value set for Anub'arak adds, I can EVEN see it if you're putting on some DPS gear for faction champs since you're not really tanking mobs there vs. spam taunting, stunning and interrupting. But for fights like tanking a Twin Val'kyr or Lord Jaraxxus, please give an example of what you're trying to do when you're swapping out high level gear for lower level gear. Or where you had to use a spreadsheet to pick whether an Heroic 258 item was better than a 245 item.
Of course, that's more of a tangent than anything. The only point being made here was that choosing your tanking set to walk into an encounter with isn't "easy", as was suggested.
Gearing as a tank is far from easy! I hope you didn't take my "eyeballing" comment as downplaying the complexity of tank gearing. I personally have spent a countless number of hours playing with gear on my tank set, and it's my offspec.
The discussion was about "And in this regard, gearing your dps spec is generally just as easy." You know, just to pull one line out of context. The issue is that for tanking, as typically an iLvL upgrade with similar (not exactly the same) stats is absolutely an upgrade. This is not the case for DPS gear, as the existence of two separate caps greatly compromises even a 13 iLvL upgrade drop. If there's Hit or Expertise on it, then it takes a second to work out what its real value is to you. Or even worse, if it would be potentially replacing an item with Hit or Expertise on it.
This isn't whining about gearing DPS being annoying. It's comparing the simplicity of the gearing tanks in relation to DPS, as a point of reference. This is not to say that gearing a tank is EASIER, just that the mandatory cap for a tank is a) extremely easy to obtain simply through stats on gear, b) Any of the stat above the cap is still good, on par with or above similar stats, and c) Once the minimum stat requirement for that cap is met, you can then optimize the gear further however you like.
Like I said before, it's about comparing the flexibility of the gearing between the two roles, and the relative ease of determining if an item can be considered an upgrade or not. This does not have to do with depth or difficulty of gearing on the whole. And I'm never going to say that gearing does not require a great deal of thought as a tank.
Well Casstor, I would say that now, more than any time in WoW history, the assumption given is actually quite relevant. Given the use of single, max-rank heals by all heals, a single avoided attack will almost always result in being topped off. I don't think that overvalues avoidance, it simply reflects the reality of how it affects healers and our chance of survival.
I used to be a healer and, honestly, without avoidance streaks heavy, consistant damage is actually very hard to keep up with. I don't think that formula puts too heavy a weight on avoidance at all, honestly--if you dig into the numbers, it actually quite emphasizes large amounts of Stamina, especially in relationship to incoming hit size. I'd say that "conventional wisdom" over-emphasizes EH without regard for the fact that if you took away your avoidance, you'd most likely never survive any of the current fights.
Anywho, this isn't really a specific to this thread. :P
As for the gearing thing, I can see arguments for both sides on the gearing issue. There's complexities on both sides. I don't really like how many stats there are to juggle as a Warrior, even if many of them irrelevant in the current content.
I'd absolutely agree that we're using / being given lots of stats. However, we're not really "juggling" them. We've got a few classes of stats: EH, Threat, Avoidance, and then Block. Depending on the encounter, you can choose to maximize certain stats so as to either minimize total incoming damage, or to survive certain expected mechanics. Once you make that choice, it's not too difficult to gear for - just choose the items you're using so as to emphasize the gearing direction you're wanting to go. It's not so much "juggling", because you're not having to handle with minimums or maximums of stats, and uncrittable through gear is pretty much a given, no matter what stat you're wanting to really work on at any given point.
However, without the aid of addons, spreadsheets, or tools is the relative value between, for instance, Parry Rating, Dodge Rating, Block Rating, and Defense Rating clear to the "average" player? Almost certainly not. Given the DR on avoidance, the various cross-over points between the value of Parry vs. Dodge, and the relative value (or lack thereof) of Blocking based on a fight-by-fight basis makes it nearly impossible to optimally choose gear without the help of external aids.
If it weren't for, as I mentioned, the distinct lack of choice in tanking gear I'm not sure you'd see many people other than the most hardcore being able to properly understand which pieces of gear as a whole to use in various situations.
Although the 'theory' has been Threat/EH/Survival sets and all that...the reality is very very very few people actually have such sets or distinctions. Even I, as a power user/number cruncher, rarely change any of my gear other than perhaps my trinkets on a regular basis. The fact is, there is simply not enough selection of gear for the complexities of our gearing to actually take shape.
So, in a way, the problem is solved. However, it's just been solved on the itemization front by giving us, at maximum 1-2 viable items in each slot--of which the majority are fairly well-balanced statistically to the point where no real decisions need to be made.
Currently, the only real decision to be made for Warrior gearing is 'do I wear a non-optimal leg/chest piece to get the 4-set bonus' or not. Otherwise wear heroic off-set pieces. All other slots have more or less clearly BiS items which are miles better than everything else or nearly identical to other available options.
If we actually had a full variety of various types of items and actually had to gear for specific fights (e.g. threat vs. survival) then gearing would be pretty complex and annoying. That said, we don't actually have to do that anymore to any major extent so the "problem" is masked. This may not be the case in Icecrown, though.
Maybe this will change with Icecrown gear, but as of right now I disagree with the above and I tend to agree with the guy that said you can generally pick your gear by eyeballing it. With the exception of a Block Value set for Anub'arak's Burrowers there's not a lot of decision-making you "really" have to do.
On all the high level Plate Armor currently (232 and above) your choices on picking gear boil down to
You can pretty much look at all the gear and say "Do I want to live longer?" or "Do I want better threat?".
While I agree that there is a choice to make, it's very very rarely a choice between an abundance of approximately equal but varying items. Generally between equal level item levels you have just two choices, max survival or max threat. Across different item levels you have the same choice, but generally the higher item level is just so much better in terms of armor, stamina and strength as well that the choice isn't that hard either. I'd be very interested if someone could demonstrate an example where they're gearing for maximum survival and are struggling between picking a lower item level over a 245 / 258 tanking item that's *not* using stat points on expertise or hit. Or vice versa where they would pick a lower item level piece for threat over a 245 / 258 item that *does* have expertise or hit.
I'll also say that in my experience, even when geared for max survival and not hit capped or soft-capped on expertise, I'm not struggling on threat if the dps gives me a 2 second head start while boss is in melee range so I'm generally always picking gear for maximum survival. The *only* scenario where I sometimes pick a lower level item when I have high level items available is in trinkets. But that's mainly because trinket itemization is rather messed up (+170 stamina vs 1792 armor & extra dodge 20sec/2min. I pick Stamina.
For the people saying "I often have to pick lower item level gear for a fight" please give examples. I can see it for trinkets, and I can see if if you're doing a block value set for Anub'arak adds, I can EVEN see it if you're putting on some DPS gear for faction champs since you're not really tanking mobs there vs. spam taunting, stunning and interrupting. But for fights like tanking a Twin Val'kyr or Lord Jaraxxus, please give an example of what you're trying to do when you're swapping out high level gear for lower level gear. Or where you had to use a spreadsheet to pick whether an Heroic 258 item was better than a 245 item.
Originally Posted by Jayde
Well Casstor, I would say that now, more than any time in WoW history, the assumption given is actually quite relevant. Given the use of single, max-rank heals by all heals, a single avoided attack will almost always result in being topped off. I don't think that overvalues avoidance, it simply reflects the reality of how it affects healers and our chance of survival.
I used to be a healer and, honestly, without avoidance streaks heavy, consistant damage is actually very hard to keep up with. I don't think that formula puts too heavy a weight on avoidance at all, honestly--if you dig into the numbers, it actually quite emphasizes large amounts of Stamina, especially in relationship to incoming hit size. I'd say that "conventional wisdom" over-emphasizes EH without regard for the fact that if you took away your avoidance, you'd most likely never survive any of the current fights.
Anywho, this isn't really a specific to this thread. :P
As for the gearing thing, I can see arguments for both sides on the gearing issue. There's complexities on both sides. I don't really like how many stats there are to juggle as a Warrior, even if many of them irrelevant in the current content.
Rees -
I still use ilvl 226 legs. Last time I checked, so did Xav. This isn't the "obvious" choice unless you're familiar with how effective health changes as armor increases. You're clearly unfamiliar with this calculation, as you've shown us in your choice of trinket above. Let's say a tank has 48,000 health and 28,000 armor.
A gain of 1.5% additional damage reduction. Considering we took 37.3% damage originally, this 1.5% represents 1.5/37.3 = 4% overall damage reduction (taken multiplicatively). Since we have 48,000 health, this amount of armor grants us the equivalent of 48,000/.96 = 50000 - 48000 = 2,000 effective health from our original set, in terms of mitigating physical attacks. 170 stam, on the other hand, grants us 1,972 health for all attacks. The extra dodge use is just icing on the cake.
Of course, the above is meaningless unless you are capable of attaining 48,000 health (I'm above 50k fully buffed with 2 stam trinkets - so this isn't unreasonable), and the damage most likely to drop you is physical damage, which varies by fight. In fights containing only physical damage, though, given my assumptions the armor trinket is clearly better, unless my calculations are off. If you'd prefer, I can put the above, or whatever the relevant calculation is, in a spreadsheet for you.
Jayde -
My contention is not that you will get topped off when you avoid (though I think there is a chance this is not the case), but rather that you are expecting, essentially, to get no aid from healers during the burst which drops you. If 3 back-to-back swings are what drops you, your healers have 4.8 seconds (assuming 20% longer intervals between swings) to react to the initial damage from the first blow. That, and the method of "Burst Time" effectively measures frequency of such damage spikes. Most of the healers I talk to state that the severity (and not the frequency) is generally what drops a tank. Of course, my assumption that modelling healing as a random variable is the better approximation to reality has its faults as well, but I feel it's a more appropriate approach, as the timing of the expected heals are less contrived.
I actually find the usage of the Saronite Plated Leggings quite odd, in some cases, actually. With Xav's gear, the Heroic Legguards of Feverish Dedication have more EH than the Saronite Plated Leggings, in addition to having more damage reduction.
Although, this is all quite variable and depends heavily on existing gear, raid buffs, and a ton of other factors.
With my gear, for instance, Saronite Plated Leggings are about the same EH as the ilevel 245 Legguards of Feverish Dedication. In your gear, the 245 ones provide less EH, although the 258 ones provide more.
But, I think this just goes to show the fact that tools/spreadsheets/etc. are fairly important for gearing decisions as a tank, even if only to analyze things like mitigation values (especially with DR considered), EH, and such--even if you make your own decisions from the data provided.
In fights containing only physical damage, though, given my assumptions the armor trinket is clearly better
So, yes, for Patchwerk, the armor is better. That's the root of the issue, though. Patchwerk is the only fight where all of the damage is mitigated by armor. So, it falls back to the age old discussion of "is more Stamina, which works on every attack, better than X amount of avoidance/mitigation/some other situational damage reduction".
I do agree with your assessment that no, 170 Sta is not alwaysclearly better than 1,792 armor + on use dodge. But, it sometimes (possibly often) is.
Well, again, I think your points reinforce the notion that there are a ton of things to consider while gearing tanks--especially in regard to fight-by-fight elements (size of hits, type of damage, number of mobs tanking, swing speeds, TPS requirements, etc.)
The mechanics are actually a bit silly complex for most people to eyeball, but at the moment we are primarily limited by options rather than the mechanics themselves. If there were considerably more gearing options (a mix of armor items, evasion heavy items, more block heavy items, a mix of heavy threat stats, etc.) many people would be quite confused on what to wear for a given fight.
In the current content, however, that isn't the case simply due to the extremely limited variety of items available.
I actually find the usage of the Saronite Plated Leggings quite odd, in some cases, actually. With Xav's gear, the Heroic Legguards of Feverish Dedication have more EH than the Saronite Plated Leggings, in addition to having more damage reduction.
Although, this is all quite variable and depends heavily on existing gear, raid buffs, and a ton of other factors.
With my gear, for instance, Saronite Plated Leggings are about the same EH as the ilevel 245 Legguards of Feverish Dedication. In your gear, the 245 ones provide less EH, although the 258 ones provide more.
But, I think this just goes to show the fact that tools/spreadsheets/etc. are fairly important for gearing decisions as a tank, even if only to analyze things like mitigation values (especially with DR considered), EH, and such--even if you make your own decisions from the data provided.
I'm confused on how you're calculating EH. The difference I see on the comparison between ilvl 245 and Saronite Plated Legguards is an exchange of 33 stam for 700 or so armor. Is there some other stat which you're converting into EH somehow? I'm unfamiliar with this calculation.
I'm confused on how you're calculating EH. The difference I see on the comparison between ilvl 245 and Saronite Plated Legguards is an exchange of 33 stam for 700 or so armor. Is there some other stat which you're converting into EH somehow? I'm unfamiliar with this calculation.
Not doing anything esoteric, nope--but it's not quite as simple as just comparing the pure armor. You have to keep in mind that bonus armor doesn't gain from certain multipliers, the effect of flat damage reduction abilities/stances, etc. Both items can be highly similar depending on your current gear, although Saronite Plated usually come out ahead of the 245 ones in many configurations. (But hardly ever come out ahead of the 258 ones.)
I actually find the usage of the Saronite Plated Leggings quite odd, in some cases, actually. With Xav's gear, the Heroic Legguards of Feverish Dedication have more EH than the Saronite Plated Leggings, in addition to having more damage reduction.
Although, this is all quite variable and depends heavily on existing gear, raid buffs, and a ton of other factors.
With my gear, for instance, Saronite Plated Leggings are about the same EH as the ilevel 245 Legguards of Feverish Dedication. In your gear, the 245 ones provide less EH, although the 258 ones provide more.
But, I think this just goes to show the fact that tools/spreadsheets/etc. are fairly important for gearing decisions as a tank, even if only to analyze things like mitigation values (especially with DR considered), EH, and such--even if you make your own decisions from the data provided.
Originally Posted by Jayde
Not doing anything esoteric, nope--but it's not quite as simple as just comparing the pure armor. You have to keep in mind that bonus armor doesn't gain from certain multipliers, the effect of flat damage reduction abilities/stances, etc.
Yup - so it makes sense that 200 or so of the armor Feverish Dedication has is affected by our 10% additional armor talent. But are you suggesting that there is an interaction between the defensive stance bonus and bonus armor which is different than the interaction between the defensive stance bonus and armor caused by ilvl?
I was just mentioning that flat reductions also get thrown in the EH pool as well, not specifically that it would change the outcome of the comparison. When I run numbers, I'm looking at the entire character so I don't typically isolate one piece in a vacuum--just the effect of changing that piece for another item.
Edit: I actually just re-ran the numbers for myself and Saronite Plated have actually pulled ahead a bit in the EH department with some recent changes. Although the 258's would still be better.
I was more just curious as to why Xav would continue using it unless he's gotten very unlucky with the 258 drop, since it seems superior of an item all-around.
For the people saying "I often have to pick lower item level gear for a fight" please give examples. I can see it for trinkets, and I can see if if you're doing a block value set for Anub'arak adds, I can EVEN see it if you're putting on some DPS gear for faction champs since you're not really tanking mobs there vs. spam taunting, stunning and interrupting. But for fights like tanking a Twin Val'kyr or Lord Jaraxxus, please give an example of what you're trying to do when you're swapping out high level gear for lower level gear. Or where you had to use a spreadsheet to pick whether an Heroic 258 item was better than a 245 item.
It's really a question of the opportunity costs. If you're only talking about 200 hp differences and big shifts from expertise to hit rating, or parry to dodge sometimes that's worth it. I think you can make a pretty strong case that saronite swordbreakers are worth "downgrading" to over the heroic version of the armguards of the shieldmaiden in some fights (it's a small loss of health for the added hit rating instead of expertise, the hit rating can be a very big deal for certain tasks).
On the northrend beasts encounter I used saronite plated legguards over normal mode feverish dedication for the first few weeks. I changed my cloak enchant to armor when it's normally agility or defense. I used the flame leviathan ring and the badge reward ring over fate's clutch.
I typically swap into a Grim Toll, cloak of the makers and saronite swordbreakers for Jaraxxus so that my taunts don't miss and so that I get added threat/dps on the adds and portals. When I'm tanking him, there are times I need to solo the interrupts, so I want to make sure shieldbash doesn't miss.
I usually try to make sure I'm hit capped for faction champs because I don't want to miss interrupts or stuns.
I make sure I'm taunt hit-capped with a glyph change for Algalon, which requires using a few pieces of ulduar gear. I also choose avoidance on-use trinkets for this fight. If I had a juggernaut's vitality I probably wouldn't use it here over the glyph of indomitability or the ignis trinket.
Since we have 48,000 health, this amount of armor grants us the equivalent of 48,000/.96 = 50000 - 48000 = 2,000 effective health from our original set, in terms of mitigating physical attacks. 170 stam, on the other hand, grants us 1,972 health for all attacks.
<snip>
In fights containing only physical damage, though, given my assumptions the armor trinket is clearly better, unless my calculations are off.
As a poster said above, if I'm tanking Naxx 25, then I agree that there's one of the 15 bosses where the 50 emblem trinket is 28 hp better. However, except for that boss, then there's more than sufficient magic damage in every other raid boss to make the item level 200 trinket BETTER than the item level 245 trinket. In my opinion, that's messed up itemization.
However, I do agree that the 226 Saronite Plated legs *are* an example that I asked for where you could legitimately pick (or at the very least have to think hard about) a lower item level piece of armor versus a higher level. My personal choice, I would still pick the Feverish Legs or T9 legs because I prefer the hit / expertise. But I wouldn't say someone was wrong for picking the Saronite legs because I hadn't realized how much bonus armor was on them til I looked.
I really do hope though that we get more selection on tanking gear in 3.3. Except for picking some pieces to ensure you're hit capped & expertise soft-capped there's generally only 1-2 viable pieces of gear for each slot (maybe 3 for legs). I enjoy building different gear sets and I would like to have some boss fights where you pick avoidance over stamina. Or have to chose threat stats over survival. But until something changes, I'll still be gemming for stamina.
As a poster said above, if I'm tanking Naxx 25, then I agree that there's one of the 15 bosses where the 50 emblem trinket is 28 hp better. However, except for that boss, then there's more than sufficient magic damage in every other raid boss to make the item level 200 trinket BETTER than the item level 245 trinket. In my opinion, that's messed up itemization.
However, I do agree that the 226 Saronite Plated legs *are* an example that I asked for where you could legitimately pick (or at the very least have to think hard about) a lower item level piece of armor versus a higher level. My personal choice, I would still pick the Feverish Legs or T9 legs because I prefer the hit / expertise. But I wouldn't say someone was wrong for picking the Saronite legs because I hadn't realized how much bonus armor was on them til I looked.
I really do hope though that we get more selection on tanking gear in 3.3. Except for picking some pieces to ensure you're hit capped & expertise soft-capped there's generally only 1-2 viable pieces of gear for each slot (maybe 3 for legs). I enjoy building different gear sets and I would like to have some boss fights where you pick avoidance over stamina. Or have to chose threat stats over survival. But until something changes, I'll still be gemming for stamina.
It depends on how your deaths on Beasts are distributed. Mine lately have been more centered on Gormok than the worms. Outside of the worms, there is no magic damage I *should* be taking (Icehowl has his breath, but that's pretty easy to heal through). My deaths tend to be due to physical damage - nearly all of them. Therefore, by increasing my physical mitigation, I increase my chance of survival. At least that's the theory. I'm just saying, if you're looking to increase your chance of survival, you can't just look at damage taken, you need to dig into actual deaths and ask "what stats could have saved me and how much would I have needed?". This is where simulators come in handy, imo. My point here is just this - just because you're not tanking patch doesn't mean there aren't large bursts of physical damage you'll run into in the future where you'll want that trinket. You might even have a bunch more health then.
You're right to suggest that the ilvl 200 trinkets are absurdly good, though. I was still using Essence of Gossamer when my guild downed Yogg. How messed up is that?
I think stamina is being undervalued currently, perhaps as a corollary to the buff stam took in TBC itemization so we could pvp without one-shotting each other and still avoid taking a dps hit in pve. That's hopefully something they'll figure out going into Cataclysm. Who knows though? They do seem to be talking a great deal about making itemization easier, don't they?
I actually have the opposite observation in regard to Heroic Beasts, after we adjusted our tactics a bit. Almost all my deaths if they happen nowadays are in P2 from burst worm Swing + Spew + Swing + Spit damage in < 4 seconds, of which about 60-70% is magical damage.
(We use a 4/2/2/2/2/2 rotation on Gormok. I take slot 3 and have Last Stand for the first two Impales and Shield Wall for the last two Impales if they happen...and basically have never died since we started doing it that way.)
The nature of the fight and how you gear for it does impact things quite heavily. Then again, I was lucky enough to get the Heroic Legguards of Feverish Dedication tonight so I don't have to use my brain anymore!
I guess we'll see if there is any more variety in Icecrown gear. With so many bosses I would almost assume there has to be.
Saronite Swordbreakers, Saronite Plated Legguards and Glyph of Indomitability aside (those are all great examples) I still think that most loot is not so hard to figure at a glance, and I am not arguing that tank stats are not complicated, just that with most current loot examples you can see that one item has say, expertise, while another has avoidance. With no need to maintain a cap on hit or expertise, and with defence over 540 by default essentially, there is not too much to consider. Your considerations might include that it is too easy to get expertise currently so a slightly worse hit item would be more useful, or that on most encounters you get more effective health from the high armoured legguards, but you do not need to consider that you can only take these new legguards if you, say, totally regem to maintain the defence cap, or that if you stop using your old bracers you will no longer be hitcapped and that is effectively mandatory.
The hardest stats to figure out at a glance are block value and rating - in this tier of gear it is on some items such as T9 head and it is not at all obvious whether it is useful over alternative heads with expertise or avoidance on. especially as it is a stat that is so modified by talents, glyphs, set bonuses, etc.
I think a change where block value and rating is consolidated into one stat would be good. I also think pressure on tanks to maintain hit or expertise at the cap would be great (with some better itemised gear) then suddenly you have to consider whether you should take an EH item if your threat will drop substantially. Finally, I think defence should be reworked - the current system is basically: you will get enough of it on your gear whether you want to or not, and then it will do it's job and you dont need to think about it. Aside from Anub adds, there is no reason to consider the value of defence on an item, and that seems broken to me.
I'm a little disconcerted with the lack of any warrior changes. I was hoping that there would be some changes for prot, mainly quality of life stuff. However fixing some of the quality of life issues we have re: HS spam, Off Tanking, rage generation when not getting smacked around etc, would require pretty significant changes so I guess were not going to see anything until Cataclysm.
I was at least hoping that the mooted HS change (scaling rage/damage) by Ghostcrawler a while back would make it in this patch. What changes/tweaks, if any do you think we can expect this patch?
What changes/tweaks, if any do you think we can expect this patch?
Until we actually do see some changes or discussion by Ghostcrawler there is no point in guessing what they might be because it will just be baseless speculation centered on what we want it to be. This in turn would simply be a re-hash of what was discussed as possible solutions in this very thread.
Originally Posted by Fellwraith
[Y]ou will tank 3 mobs, and only 3 mobs. 5 shalt thou not tank, nor shalt thou tank 4. Thou shalt not tank 2 mobs unless it is on the way to tanking 3 mobs.
Until we actually do see some changes or discussion by Ghostcrawler there is no point in guessing what they might be because it will just be baseless speculation centered on what we want it to be. This in turn would simply be a re-hash of what was discussed as possible solutions in this very thread.
Some blue posts have been recently made regarding possibly rage changes soon. This is to address geared tanks actually being a bit of a disadvantage in lesser content.
In keeping with the discussion around Parry-haste, since that is the topic du jour, has anyone done any testing around whether non-targeted players' parries will cause a parry haste?
I was tanking the fire guy in VoA, and had a couple players standing next to me to help spread out the molten fists. This seems to be how the fight is designed, but if some player with 0 expertise but a very high attack speed were standing in front of him, and racking up a ton of parries, then could this result in the boss getting a much higher level of parry haste?
I realize this is kind of a specialized question without a ton of impact, doubly with the expanding roster of parry haste disabled bosses, but I would be curious to hear some thoughts if anyone feels like they've noticed this before.
Might try to run a log/parse on ony with an offtank standing in parry range, just to see what happens.
First of all my logs indicate that Korolan has the parry flag turned off.
Second, if the players would parry his fists, they would get the parry haste, not the boss (otherwise it would be problematic to stack parry as player). So do not be confused: you parry -> you gain speed, boss parries -> boss gets speed
has anyone done any testing around whether non-targeted players' parries will cause a parry haste?
If you are asking whether another player can cause the boss to parry haste the tank, then yes, they can. A rogue say, with no expertise attacking a boss from infront would cause the boss to potentially attack the tank faster due to parry haste. This is why offtanks generally stand on the side of bosses until it is their turn to tank. Or at least, used to before they all got lazy.
I might have misunderstood what you are asking though.
10/06/09, 5:37 PM
The issue is that for tanking, as typically an iLvL upgrade with similar (not exactly the same) stats is absolutely an upgrade. This is not the case for DPS gear, as the existence of two separate caps greatly compromises even a 13 iLvL upgrade drop. If there's Hit or Expertise on it, then it takes a second to work out what its real value is to you. Or even worse, if it would be potentially replacing an item with Hit or Expertise on it.
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