Finalizing the Prot Warrior design - Page 59

Tyvi · 03/09/10, 9:07 PM

The weapon is bad. The proc increases your healing taken on average by a bit but healers will not heal you any different because of it. Sound familiar? It should, since that is pretty much what avoidance does except avoidance reduces your damage taken on average which is better (preventing damage is always better than healing it). Once again though, healers won't heal you any differently but atleast avoidance has a chance to prevent nasty 4-5 hit streaks in a row. Other weapons offer avoidance and not all that much less Strength.

Plus, the 1.8 speed is pretty odd for threat.

Wheeljack · 03/10/10, 5:00 AM

I don't the weapon is quite as bad as you make it sound. Healers get unexpected bonus to their healing all the time - crits for one thing. And I wouldn't be surprised if some of the healing mods could/will/do adapt to track the bonus value from that buff into healing info.

A druid rolling hots would just have to cast nourish on you a little less frequently; emergency spam healing when you drop could bring you up a bit faster than it would otherwise; etc etc.

However, I agree that it adds little to your overall survival - if anything it will simply be a boost your healers mana efficiency. I think it'd be an interesting weapon for DKs to dual wield though, since it's not MH only - I wonder if the buff would stack? Their gain on parry from strength could make this interesting to them. But I don't know much about DK tank mechanics.

Montegomery · 03/10/10, 4:45 PM

Tank damage comes in spikes. Last Word isn't going to be the difference between casting X healing spells or X+1 healing spells to top off a tank, or between casting Big Heal and Small Heal. If Druid HoTs are enough to keep a Tank up without casting Nourish then you either have a lot of Druids or the damage being done to the tank is minimal.

In the latter case, Last Word could theoretically be useful, but the situation most tanks worry about is getting gibbed. Last Word does almost nothing to stop 99% of gib scenarios.

MatsT · 03/10/10, 9:26 PM

A significant part of the tank gibs actually have some healing thrown in somewhere in the middle. In these cases, even one heal with a 1.0 coefficient would make it worth 300/340 hp which isn't that bad. Sucks that it probably doesn't affect Beacon heals though...

Jumai · 03/11/10, 1:06 AM

Everything about Last Word sits wrong with me. It shines when you're getting a shit ton of heals. That's usually not when I die.

I can't help looking at my [Ardent Guard] and thinking the proc can't possibly be worth 522 armour, 31 defense, 18 dodge rating, and 2 stamina. The strength and dps differences don't even register for me... if you're going to argue they matter I hope your gloves have Armsman on them. And seriously, I hope your gloves don't have Armsman on them.

Xard · 03/11/10, 2:27 AM

Its odd that everyone is talking about how bad the proc is, because it doesn't save you in "oh shit" situations. Isn't that the same disproven logic that people use against avoidance? Against any kind of proc mechanic?

Essentially based on the idea that any damage in needs to be healed before it amounts to more than your current health pool, the proc can be considered as having reduced the damage you've taken by however much additional healing it adds. This is an interesting point because it means that multiple heals coming in as well as HOTs rolling will give you more effect, while a single flash heal will get less benefit from the proc. Thus, if you're running paladin heavy raids where most of the heals hitting you are short casts from a single healer, then you get less benefit from the proc. If you're in a druid heavy guild where you have a couple stacks of druid hots rolling 100%, this proc could be really, really powerful.

I just hope people realize that the argument of "it doesn't save me in _____ situation" doesn't mean something is worthless. It might not be as good as all the stats on another weapon, but certainly it has value.

Montegomery · 03/11/10, 1:22 PM

I ran a few coefficient numbers. In a 3 second gib period, a balanced 25-man raid can expect an additional 1000-1200 healing on the tank from HoTs (2x Lifebloom stacks, 2x Rejuv, 2x Renew), and an average of 500-600 (non-crit) from each big, direct heal that lands. This doesn't alter a healer's decision making, but it does function similarly to how one considers Earth Shield or Living Seed.

Obviously an additional 2k healing received isn't worthless, and the longer a tank is able to extend a potential gib period the better Last Word performs. The issue many tanks have is that it comes at the cost of avoidance, and avoidance helps prevent the situation from happening in the first place. The fewer times you have a potential gib scenario, the fewer chances you have of catching your healers off guard and getting gibbed.

The major problem at this point is data. It's hard to evaluate the potential worth of Last Word versus any other weapon because we don't have a solid information source to rely upon. Were there a database consisting entirely of the damage/healing data leading up to tank deaths, say the 30 seconds beforehand, we could better quantify what situations are most relevant and whether avoidance or Last Word's proc would have had been better.

Xiaphos · 03/11/10, 2:17 PM

As i was looking over this i cant help but notice whether or not anyone verified parry haste in ICC bosses? i looked over my logs from a few bosses and haven't noticed it in plague quarters but i don't have a log for Crimson or Frost Halls. anyone Confirm Deny?

Tyvi · 03/11/10, 7:57 PM

From what I know only Sindragosa and Lady Deathwhisper can parry haste. For some reason, they are also voiced by the same voice actress so make of that what you will :P

Jumai · 03/11/10, 8:29 PM

I was extremely concerned about parry haste early in ICC, what with all the 2-tank fights, but as I've geared up it has sort of fallen away for me. The reason is I'm willing to trade out avoidance for expertise in 2-tank fights with parry haste, but I'm not willing to swap out armour, and the number of expertise pieces that represent serious options for this sort of thinking has plummeted to... I can think of Cataclysmic Chestguard and the Facelifter, but that's it. Plus, if you want to run 4pT10 and the chest, you can't wear the crafted legs (armour again).

Casstor · 03/12/10, 4:51 PM

Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade

I ran a few coefficient numbers. In a 3 second gib period, a balanced 25-man raid can expect an additional 1000-1200 healing on the tank from HoTs (2x Lifebloom stacks, 2x Rejuv, 2x Renew), and an average of 500-600 (non-crit) from each big, direct heal that lands. This doesn't alter a healer's decision making, but it does function similarly to how one considers Earth Shield or Living Seed.

Obviously an additional 2k healing received isn't worthless, and the longer a tank is able to extend a potential gib period the better Last Word performs. The issue many tanks have is that it comes at the cost of avoidance, and avoidance helps prevent the situation from happening in the first place. The fewer times you have a potential gib scenario, the fewer chances you have of catching your healers off guard and getting gibbed.

The major problem at this point is data. It's hard to evaluate the potential worth of Last Word versus any other weapon because we don't have a solid information source to rely upon. Were there a database consisting entirely of the damage/healing data leading up to tank deaths, say the 30 seconds beforehand, we could better quantify what situations are most relevant and whether avoidance or Last Word's proc would have had been better.

Alternatively, you could generate as much data as you like if you're willing to accept the limitations of a tanking simulator which models healing output as a random variable having some frequency and severity distribution.

Aside from contributing to EH through healing when you're taking a burst of damage, the proc also does have the potential of saving your healer a GCD topping you off to better prepare for an incoming burst. Of course this would only be relevant very, very rarely - but if it saved the healer a GCD every time you took a burst, it would be incredibly overpowered.

I guess what I'm saying is - spell power does affect how your healers heal you in that more spell power means fewer spells they need to top you off. Let's not forget that 300 spell power for some healers is practically an entire tier of content worth of item budget.

mysteltainn · 03/14/10, 9:11 AM

An interesting point regarding the Last Word proc is that disc priests' shields and val'anyr procs directly translate that spellpower into effective health.

mallhoof · 03/18/10, 5:57 PM

delete pls found my answers

Vargras · 03/21/10, 3:22 AM

Does anyone know whether or not the four-piece bonus from T10 can be boosted with Last Stand? I'm still unsure if the four-piece bonus is worth it, or if I should just go for the high armor off-set pieces. If the Bloodrage bubble can be boosted by popping Last Stand beforehand, I'd say that certainly boosts the usefulness of it.

spaace · 03/21/10, 6:57 PM

Decided to test it myself;

4pc T10 - Item - Warrior T10 Protection 4P Bonus - Spell - World of Warcraft

Spaace gains Spaace's Fortitude.
Spaace gains Spaace's Last Stand.
Spaace gains Spaace's Bloodrage.
Spaace gains Spaace's Stoicism.
Spaace gains 20 Rage from Spaace's Bloodrage.
Thrym's attack was absorbed by Spaace.(2366 Absorbed)
Thrym's attack was absorbed by Spaace.(3969 Absorbed)
Thrym's attack was absorbed by Spaace.(3558 Absorbed)
Thrym's melee swing hits Spaace for 473 Physical.(3143 Absorbed) (Critical)
Spaace's Stoicism fades from Spaace.

Total absorbed: 13036
-------

Spaace gains Spaace's Last Stand.
Spaace gains Spaace's Bloodrage.
Spaace gains Spaace's Stoicism.
Spaace gains 20 Rage from Spaace's Bloodrage.
Thrym's attack was absorbed by Spaace.(3922 Absorbed)
Thrym's attack was absorbed by Spaace.(4532 Absorbed)
Thrym's melee swing hits Spaace for 406 Physical.(3118 Absorbed) (Critical)
Spaace's Stoicism fades from Spaace.

Total absorbed: 11642
-------

Spaace gains Spaace's Bloodrage.
Spaace gains Spaace's Stoicism.
Spaace gains 20 Rage from Spaace's Bloodrage.
Thrym's attack was absorbed by Spaace.(3108 Absorbed)
Thrym's attack was absorbed by Spaace.(4266 Absorbed)
Thrym's melee swing hits Spaace for 1390 Physical.(1680 Absorbed) (Critical)
Spaace's Stoicism fades from Spaace.

Total absorbed: 9054
--------