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Old 03/24/10, 7:25 PM   #886
Tyvi
Never, Mags. Never!
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Turalyon (EU)
Now that I had some time to play around with an UA spec, I have to admit that I didn't see this coming at all: The UA spec appears to make AoE tanking easier than the usual Shockwave/Damage Shield spec. Anyone else having the same experience? I have a few theories why that seems to be the case:

1) 15% ArP on Thunderclap (and other abilities, but this is obviously the big one) due to Mace spec.
2) Glyphed Sweeping Strikes before the pull are pretty nice too. One Revenge seems to trigger 4 attacks with this, 2 from SS and the regular 2 hits. On top of that, you can pop Retaliation if you choose to SS in combat since SS doesn't incur the GCD and you need to wait 1 sec to switch back stances anyway.
3) Revenge has a 1 sec GCD plus it cleaves. That makes tab targetting ALOT easier.

On top of all this, this spec is quite alot of DPS so the feeling of actually contributing some damage is pretty nice.

The disadvantages:

1) No sunders for obvious reasons. Might lead to a slight raid dps loss but then again, losing aggro is more of a concern than wiping on trash because it takes a few seconds longer to kill.
2) The Shockwave stun is somewhat nice, especially since most trash is stunnable (And this is also the one reason I did Deathbringer Saurfang in the "normal" spec. AoE stun beasts is just too damn nice to give up.). I'd lie if I said I didn't miss it but I can live with that.

I am quite happy they gave Warriors a nice DPS boost for once, without any drawback. Shield Slam is nice and all for threat, but the fact that it doesn't scale past some point is really disappointing.

On a different note, I am pulling upwards to 7k DPS while tanking heroics in DPS gear with this.


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Old 03/25/10, 5:47 AM   #887
Haakon
Glass Joe
 
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Human Priest
 
Azjol-Nerub (EU)
I'm just curious, how much dps gear you can get away with wearing while tanking heroics?

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Old 03/25/10, 9:05 AM   #888
Tyvi
Never, Mags. Never!
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Turalyon (EU)
Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
I'm just curious, how much dps gear you can get away with wearing while tanking heroics?
Full DPS gear, except the shield of course. With Mace spec I am at 102% ArP with that set.
This is from the first heroic I did as UA (Oops, that's not UA, that is my normal spec ><. The one below is still UA though):



And the Razuvious weekly, trash from beginning until the boss (don't mind me being mean to the Druid, he is a guildie and awfully in denial that Druids have more EH than us so it's my way of paying him back :P):



This spec is a bit harder to heal than the normal spec in DPS gear because, as mentioned above, you lack the Shockwave stuns and 60 sec Shield Block cd vs 40 sec Shield Block but it should not be an issue for anything but HoR or maybe PoS depending on your healer.

Here is a video I finished uploading for the guild (so don't expect any editing) with me attempting to solo the first 2 mobs in ICC in a block set. I have done this pre 3.3.3 once but it was ALOT closer than this because the mobs were just gradually wearing me down due to my pitiful DPS. This is full tanking gear and I was/am still learning all the kinks of UA (like when I think of using SS at some point instead of on CD).

YouTube - The new Revenge.avi

(The video is propably still processing so check back later for a 720p HD version when it is done encoding.)

Last edited by Tyvi : 03/25/10 at 9:42 AM. Reason: First screenshot is not UA, it is the normal spec. Also added a YouTube video


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Old 03/25/10, 10:58 AM   #889
Vargras
Glass Joe
 
Orc Warrior
 
Moon Guard
@ Liar

When you say full DPS gear, do you truly mean DPS gear, or are you wearing PvP gear as well in order to remain uncrittable? This is, of course, going by the assumption that resilience can also make you uncrittable in PvE.

Only reason I ask is that it's kinda hard to tell based on the screenshots you posted, and the Armory can be a bit slow at times.

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Old 03/25/10, 11:01 AM   #890
Tyvi
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Human Death Knight
 
Turalyon (EU)
Originally Posted by Vargras View Post
@ Liar

When you say full DPS gear, do you truly mean DPS gear, or are you wearing PvP gear as well in order to remain uncrittable? This is, of course, going by the assumption that resilience can also make you uncrittable in PvE.
Full DPS gear. I am still crittable whenever Shield Block isn't up. But that's what CDs and your stuns are for (especially with the Shockwave spec). I think I logged out in my Heroic Tanking Suit (tm) at the moment, so check it out on armory if you want.

I also got another video that's being uploaded to YouTube right now to showcase UA spec in Utgarde Pinnacle and it's quite safe with an average geared healer. The fact that I am not playing at my best because of I am limited to 20 FPS in favor of a 1600x1200 recording and still new to all the UA kinks supports this (you can see what I mean in the early bits of the movie, really bad timing on Last Stand there :P).

EDIT: Uploading is finished. Please wait until it's proper processed though since the quality is really terrible otherwise:

YouTube - UA in UP Part 1.avi and YouTube - UA in UP Part 2.avi (~11 mins total)

EDIT2: First part seems to processing still for some reason even though part 2 finished ages ago. Oo Anyways, here are some HD download links (total around 700 MB) recorded at the full 1600x1200 for those that are interested:

Download UA in UP Part 1.avi
Download UA in UP Part 2.avi

EDIT3: Done processing. Enjoy!

Last edited by Tyvi : 03/25/10 at 5:52 PM. Reason: Added video


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Old 03/25/10, 11:05 PM   #891
MatsT
Don Flamenco
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Frostmane (EU)
Being uncrittable is only as issue when the mobs will crit you for a significant portion of your hp. In heroics you will typically be taking multiple 5-10k hits and having one of these critting doesn't matter much. Crit reduction is mostly just damage reduction here.

Most of the pre-ICC heroics can be tanked in full dps gear and even dps specc if you have a competent healer with you and your dps gear is high enough ilvl to have respectable armor and stamina values. Berserker stance and no shield means you take a lot of damage but the packs usually die so fast that the healer can keep you up.

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Old 03/26/10, 1:50 AM   #892
Gravebait
Piston Honda
 
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Skru
Orc Warrior
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Liar View Post
Full DPS gear. I am still crittable whenever Shield Block isn't up. But that's what CDs and your stuns are for (especially with the Shockwave spec). I think I logged out in my Heroic Tanking Suit (tm) at the moment, so check it out on armory if you want.

I also got another video that's being uploaded to YouTube right now to showcase UA spec in Utgarde Pinnacle and it's quite safe with an average geared healer. The fact that I am not playing at my best because of I am limited to 20 FPS in favor of a 1600x1200 recording and still new to all the UA kinks supports this (you can see what I mean in the early bits of the movie, really bad timing on Last Stand there :P).

EDIT: Uploading is finished. Please wait until it's proper processed though since the quality is really terrible otherwise:

YouTube - UA in UP Part 1.avi and YouTube - UA in UP Part 2.avi (~11 mins total)

EDIT2: First part seems to processing still for some reason even though part 2 finished ages ago. Oo Anyways, here are some HD download links (total around 700 MB) recorded at the full 1600x1200 for those that are interested:

Download UA in UP Part 1.avi
Download UA in UP Part 2.avi

EDIT3: Done processing. Enjoy!
At the risk of clogging up the thread, here's another POV to help encourage people to spend the 100g to tank a heroic or two with UA at least once - YouTube - 3.3.3 Warrior Revenge Tanking 12k+ DPS

I feel that the lack of mobility and control that this spec has when compared to a standard Shockwave build dooms it to the trash-tanking niche, but despite these factors it's still the most fun I've had in Wrath. I'm sure most Prot warriors have tanked heroics in DPS gear at this point but, if you haven't, steer clear of PoS, HoR, and possibly the first encounter in ToC. Everything else is fine to tank in 100% DPS gear given an unbuffed HP pool of ~27k+ (after taking a quick check of your random healer's competence). Seven minute frost badges, hoo!

Last edited by Gravebait : 03/26/10 at 3:47 AM.

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Old 03/26/10, 7:07 PM   #893
docman
Glass Joe
 
Orc Warrior
 
Laughing Skull
You guys convinced me to try this and it's the most fun I've had on WoW in a while. I'm just wondering if you guys think there will be a nerf to the UA spec. The only way I can see them nerfing it is by dropping Imp. Revenge farther down the prot tree. Is this a real possibility or will we be able to get away with this UA spec until at least Cataclysm?

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Old 03/26/10, 7:18 PM   #894
Tyvi
Never, Mags. Never!
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Turalyon (EU)
Originally Posted by docman View Post
You guys convinced me to try this and it's the most fun I've had on WoW in a while. I'm just wondering if you guys think there will be a nerf to the UA spec. The only way I can see them nerfing it is by dropping Imp. Revenge farther down the prot tree. Is this a real possibility or will we be able to get away with this UA spec until at least Cataclysm?
Honestly, that depends on Blizzards' priority. Do they care about people going UA in DPS gear for heroics or do they not? Let's be frank, UA in DPS gear is completely broken - there is absolutely no denying that (even though the reactions of PuG DPS to the meters are quite amusing :P). I could see a nerf justified with that reasoning but it would be quite a shame because the UA spec in normal gear is quite nice for trash in raids and some bosses. And it's not like an UA specced Warrior tanking a raid boss is going to top damage meters, UA just helps to bridge the gap between tank DPS. Keep in mind that people usually combine UA in an expertise/hit heavy set to get the most of it, so the gap between UA and normal spec seems a lot bigger in reality because people usually compare their new DPS to that in a mitigation set. Personally, I need to do some more raids before I can say this with certainty, though the few bosses I did as UA (Marrowgar, Festergut, Princes, BQL) were like a ~500 DPS increase. If I wanted to go higher, then I would have to stack some Expertise but we aren't all that comfortable in heroic 10 mans yet for me to do that to our healers.

Again, if they want to nerf UA, they need to do it in a way that doesn't break UA in normal tank gear because that is balanced. I just don't see a way to do this though, because the problem with this spec is that heroics are just too easy to survive and having 100% ArP easily at this time of the expansion doesn't help matters either.


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Old 03/30/10, 5:24 PM   #895
Tyvi
Never, Mags. Never!
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Turalyon (EU)
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
In the interest of avoiding the unflattering scent of stealth nerf, allow me to post that we are going to make that change (one Revenge per proc) I suggested above.
Source

Not too surprised by this and that should definitely be enough to kill UA in DPS gear. However I fear it might also disadvantage UA a little on trash, provided you tank less than 3-4 melee mobs during ICC radiance. The biggest nerf, unfortunately, is UA as boss spec. That is quite a shame since it helped bridge the gap between Warrior tank DPS and other tanks' DPS.

I am not sure why they didn't take a different route, like tying Revenge damage more closely to Sunder Armor stacks like they did with Devastate because that's something that generally differentiates between a Warrior tanking something like a raid boss (since they don't die as fast and you want to increase RDPS for obvious reasons) from someone going havoc in DPS gear in a heroic.

Not surprised by the nerf, but can't help being disappointed in the negative effect on it as a tank spec. Again, the UA nerf in DPS gear is completely warranted, but it's a real shame that they didn't fix this without affecting the legit UA use.


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Old 03/31/10, 1:10 PM   #896
Elimbras
Don Flamenco
 
Dwarf Priest
 
Eitrigg (EU)
In tanking gear, you should be avoiding a lot of attacks, so UA will still be useful.
ICC is still a trouble however (because of Chill of the Throne, but that is an artefact of gear scaling). And slow hitting boss will also be a trouble. But for fast hitting bosses, you'll still gain a respectful chunk of revenge.

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Old 03/31/10, 4:26 PM   #897
elting44
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Warrior
 
Les Clairvoyants
Originally Posted by Liar View Post
Not surprised by the nerf, but can't help being disappointed in the negative effect on it as a tank spec. Again, the UA nerf in DPS gear is completely warranted, but it's a real shame that they didn't fix this without affecting the legit UA use.
Yeah, I think we all saw this coming, Its a shame, it was fun while it lasted.

What I was thinking they could have done, was scale Revenge's damage with Defense Rating, So It would hit for 3-4k with 8-11k crits if you had at or around 540 defense. So if you wanted it to hit like a mack truck (7-8K with 16-19k crits like it did with DPS gear) you could sacrifice Stamina trinkets and use Def trinkets, gear, even gems. That would reward people with higher level gear that carries higher defense rating.

It was nice doing Heroics with 39k health, tanking them with 56k is pretty boring

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Old 03/31/10, 6:19 PM   #898
Tyvi
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Human Death Knight
 
Turalyon (EU)
Originally Posted by elting44 View Post
It was nice doing Heroics with 39k health, tanking them with 56k is pretty boring
It's not like DPS tanking in heroics is dead anyway, just do it in the Shockwave spec.

Anyways, UA in ICC seems pretty much dead with the -20% dodge debuff. Tried using it on trash where the nerf should have been the least noticable but I had periods without Revenge lighting up on anything but the full melee packs at the entrance (the ones that swing like once every second). Obviously, DPS and TPS takes quite a huge hit when we can't use Revenge and most other packs seem to consist of 2-3 melee and 2-3 caster packs that don't swing as fast. I didn't even bother with UA on bosses after seeing this and plan to spec out of it after we killed Princes and BQL because those 2 are the ones I that should benefit from UA the most, especially BQL in avoidance gear. Honestly though, I am not expecting much from this which is quite a shame. The benefit of 1 sec GCD Revenge plus 15% ArP on trash was pretty sweet for our AoE threat but I just don't see 15% ArP and maybe a Revenge every 2-3 secs making up for Shockwave and Damage Shield anymore. Sure, there are streaks where you can spam Revenge every second but that's relying way too much on RNG for my tastes which can be bad when you fail to make Revenge light up early in the pull.
I am seriously going to miss Sweeping Strikes though, that's such a nice trash tanking ability. Too bad it's not a base line ability. :P


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Old 04/01/10, 10:15 AM   #899
elting44
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Warrior
 
Les Clairvoyants
Originally Posted by Liar View Post
It's not like DPS tanking in heroics is dead anyway, just do it in the Shockwave spec.
I am not familiar with a Shockwave build, Glyph of Shockwave + DPS gear?

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Old 04/01/10, 11:10 AM   #900
Tyvi
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Human Death Knight
 
Turalyon (EU)
Originally Posted by elting44 View Post
I am not familiar with a Shockwave build, Glyph of Shockwave + DPS gear?
Oh, just refering to the normal 15/3/51 (+2 points wherever) spec as the Shockwave spec. But yes, Glyph of Shockwave, Glyph of Cleaving and Glyph of Blocking or Devastate is what I used for heroics and raid trash before UA became viable.


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