That's why I mentioned a change to the stamina multipliers. Sarth 3D is a fight designed about magical dmg and high inc dmg. You have to blast a lot of cooldowns. It's a typical fight Blizzard has just designed for DK tanking. Druids can do well, too, because of their HP.

The question is: Is the warrior bad designed because he cannot tank or is the encounter bad designed?

I would say it's the last. The difficulty for the raid to stay alive is well tuned but the DMG Sarth does is too high for any paladin or warrior. I'm pretty happy with my HP (even if I could get more), they aren't too low - the DMG is too high.




There are 2 ways to equalize the stamina problem:

One: Buff the warrior. But how much would be enough? We would need to get close to 50k HP in Defstance just to become close to equal with DK and Druids, wouldn't we? That's nearly 20% more stamina. To equalize ProtPaladins they would also need to buff their stamina by 20%. At all it wouldn't change much, Paladins would still outscale us and Druids and DKs would still argue with "we don't have shields". We wouldn't gain much unless Blizzard tries to overhaul the Shield avoidance and Mitigation.

Second: Nerf the others (and bosses).
I have played a feral druid in TBC and yes it was quite awesome. You didn't have to care much about Defense and Avoidance, you just took some exp and hit and the rest (sockets and enchants) went directly into stamina. You were armorcapped in some blues and greens and with some pieces of the arena gear you were even able to tank kara,gruul and mag. I would say it's still possible - or even easier - to do so in Wrath than it was in TBC. As warrior, where is the argument that a druid gains 20% stamina just by forming into a bear when he is just 2k HP behind a equal-geared warrior? Don't misunderstand me, druids have suffered a long time, but in terms of "bring the player not the class" the stamina and avoidance boni they get from talents are really a bunch too high (-12% dmg taken, 10% dodge, critimmun and 20% stamina).
Perhaps also DKs need an overhaul. Same with Paladins; the outscaling point we calculated is Naxx10 - 2 bigger content patches too early (Ulduar, Icecrown).



Sarth is the ultima because it requires good DPS, good Heal, good reactions. But in terms of the progress line (Archa-Sarth-Naxx-Maly-Sarth+Adds) he is more like Kael'thas. The bosses I met so far are nice tuned. As entry they allow not-so-well geared player to gain some experience, not very harmfull at all. Sarth is a jump in difficulty for the raid, he doesn't require more from a tank than any other boss in terms of threat.

I know (and hope) that Ulduar will be a real step after Naxx.
If Blizzard is going to design encounters for Ulduar which forces your raid to bring highStamina tanks than both -paladins and warriors- will not going to be viable tanks. But that has nothing to do with the classes but with Blizzards tuning. It should be more appealing to stay alive, to do some sort of CCing adds, perhaps some events and not blowing the tank away by 1hitting him.

(and yes they will nerf Sarth3D when Ulduar hits like they nerfed before)



PS:
I think Warriors and Paladins are close to equal from mechanics and tank-ability. The can perform very well. If Blizzard would balance encounters around them and scale the HP of Druids and DKs down everything would be nice.
With their politics to adjust missing shields by enormous amounts of stamina and armor they did very well in TBC but with these tons of stamina on Wrath gear they need to overthink their system. The damage mitigated/avoided form having a shield doesn't justify a compensation of Druids and DKs with 20k HP and armorcapped. (This is the problem in my eyes not that we lack of 20k HP).

How do raid buffs increase warrior threat generation? Pallies will gain extra threat through Stam->Spellpower conversions when they get Fort/BoK (not sure about DK/druid). Warriors will gain Might/BS in a raid, but one of our largest threat abilities only scales with Str, not AP. I know that Blizz changed AttT from Str to AP to avoid having all that extra Str but was that really that OP? All tanks pick up that ability regardless, so it's not like the change was a big deterrent to prot warriors. Changing that back to Str and adding more threat scaling or mitigation to Str seems like a good way to address our threat generation.

Also, Blizz will change the mechanics for Sunder Armor to be a percentage instead of a flat amount with 3.1. Why not continue that trend by making Shield Block block a percentage of attacks, as has been discussed. That would feel more consistent as well.

As a dps warrior but also as an OT, I'm annoyed by the desire to have both a glyph of cleave (for packs) and a glyph of HS (for single targets). Both seem reasonably important for decent threat generation (or dps). And only one ability/glyph can be used at any given point in time, since both replace a normal swing. It's annoying to lose 2 glyph slots for normal swing replacement abilities.

This is somewhat of a summary of things written in this thread, wrapped into specific talent changes I would like to see:

Improved Spell Reflection - When the ability is used it will reflect first spell cast against the 2/4 closest party members and reduce all spell damage you take by 10/20% for 5 seconds.

Safeguard - Reduces damage taken by the target of your intervene ability by 15/30% for 6 seconds and decreases the cooldown of your revenge ability by 1/2 seconds.

Puncture - reduce rage cost of Sunder Armor and Devastate by 1/2/3 and gives your Sunder Armor and Devastate a 10/20/30% chance of Rending your target.

Vitality - Increases your total Strength and Stamina by 2/4/6/8/10% and your Expertise by 2/4/6/8/10.

These would all go a good way towards addressing some of the concerns listed in this thread, and I think would be easy enough tweaks to implement. And they aren't just straight buffs because all of them would require talent point choices not currently included in the standard 15/5/51 spec.

You only think that because for most encounters DPS classes can't push us for threat. However, all of the other 3 tank classes put out more single target threat and 2 of them put out substantially more AE threat. At what point will this be a problem? I'm not sure, but raising warrior tank DPS would help both ways.

Possibly, but warriors are better than ferals for this job. Throw vigilance on the MT and spam your TC/shockwave/cleave/taunts and you are much better than a feral, especially if you are spec'd deep wounds. That being said, try using a DK sometime for this job and watch him do 6-8K dps and solo half the adds.

In reference to the fast/slow weapon and HS vs devastate/rend: I actually like this flair to our tanking. It gives us more choice in our tanking style. If they would implement a heroic strike toggle on/off like Satrina suggested it would really give us a solid choice -- high rage fights use a fast weapon, low rage fights use a slow weapon.

I definitely like the prot tree how it is, which is why I put the talent change suggestions where I did. While it won't stop anyone from speccing 15/5/51 you actually have to decide whether you want to sacrifice all the extra goodies in prot for impale/deep wounds. I think the current problem is that it is easy enough to pick only the "PvE" talents in prot and get to 51 and have nothing worth taking over 15 in arms.