Warrior changes in 3.1: Buffs or nerfs? - Page 4

Heisenberg · 02/10/09, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by hellord

Thanks everyone for the replies firstly.
@Heisenberg
Why am I reading wrong? The first thing that popped in my mind is that prot talent that we saw in beta, but to help everyone (dps and tanks) it may be put as a baseline ability. If it's not something like this please explain.

Your examples suggested the warrior would get rage when his opponent dodged/parried/blocked (hence your mention of expertise, positioning, deterrence and Death Knights blocking).

Blizzard's wording suggests the opposite: "when the warrior blocks, dodges or parries", not "when the warrior's opponent blocks, dodges or parries".

LodeRunner · 02/11/09, 1:19 PM

Originally Posted by Geo

So with the change to bases armor, what happens to the dps value of something like Grim Toll (thank god I didn't vendor it)?

I can't imagine ever vendoring Grim Toll what with it being such a phenomenal pvp trinket against plate classes.

Xabrophazon · 02/13/09, 2:44 AM

Originally Posted by hellord

@Liar
When I was writing I was indeed thinking about your post, and I understand this change would be a boost even if not a big one.

About using WW as arms, do any of you see any chance we could insert that in our priority list?
It would be a bit expensive in therms of rage, since should be 10+25+10, but these days I'm often finding myself full of rage and unable to dump it.
Anyway if we would ever use it, we would skip a slam or even 2, so we probably have first to see what's the buff on Slam if there will be any.

Why wouldn't you just keep slamming? WW hits for just normalized weapon damage, but Slam isn't normalized (last I checked) and deals bonus damage.

Unless there are 2+ mobs nearby, I don't see how WW could possibly be better than Slam spam when MS/OP/SD procs aren't up.

hellord · 02/13/09, 7:41 AM

Slam reduces your white dps by 0.5/swing speed, so you have to account this.
If you are at about 2.6speed raidbuffed your Slam will reduce your next white swing damage by ~20%.
Also best weapons are atm 3.4s (death's bite and boh) so very close to the 3.3 normalization value.
And we are considering fights where you don't have to move at all.

You also have to consider that the normalization is applied only to the attack power part of your weapon damage.
WD = base weapon damage = Weapon DPS * Weapon Speed (non-normalized in any case)

WW = WD + AP/14 * 3.3
Slam = WD + AP/14 * Weapon Speed - Swing Damage * 0.5 / Hasted Speed

The swing damage is a bit lower than special damage since it can glance.
The more haste you have the more white damage you loose from using Slam.

I'll try to make 2 examples, same AP different weapon speeds.

5600 AP, 200DPS weapon, 20% WF haste, 6% haste from BF, 4% haste from gear.
Total Haste should be 1.04*1.06*1.2 = 32%

1) Weapon Speed = 3.4
Hasted Speed = 3.4/1.32 = 2.58

WD = 200*3.4 = 680
White swing = 680 + 5600/14*3.4 = 2040 (1530 glance)

WW = 680 + 5600/14*3.3 = 2000
Slam = 250 + 680 + 5600/14*3.4 = 2290

Slam reduction:
Normal = 2040*0.5/2.58 = ~395
Glance = 1530*0.5/2.58 = ~296
Slam damage will be 1895 to 1994 both cases lower than WW

2) Weapon Speed = 3.6
Hasted Speed = 3.6/1.32 = 2.72

WD = 200*3.6 = 720
White swing = 720 + 5600/14*3.6 = 2160 (1620 glance)

WW = 720 + 5600/14*3.3 = 2040
Slam = 250 + 720 + 5600/14*3.6 = 2410

Slam reduction:
Normal = 2160*0.5/2.72 = ~397
Glance = 1620*0.5/2.72 = ~298
Slam damage will be 2013 to 2112 so unless you glance it will be sligthly lower than WW

Note: I am not considering the rage loss due to Slam, nor the rage loss due to switch for WW.
EDIT: I am not considering also that WW gets 3% more crit due to berserker stance

Assumptions:
You are under 75% crit, hit/exp capped.
The difference between a special and a white swing is only 25% glance while both have same crit chances.

Conclusions: If you have a very slow weapon (not best weapons in game atm) WW is better than Slam when you don't glance. Since glance happens 1/4th of the time on average WW is slightly better than Slam when you are raidbuffed.

I think Shha did the math about Slam in the Arms post before LK realease, and found that you can use Slam down to ~1.8 speed, while under that speed you would probably prefer to skip Slam and go for HS on next swing.

ljl · 02/13/09, 11:54 PM

hellord:

I'm not quite sure why you did include the possibility of a glancing blow on white damage, but decided not to include a critical hit. It's not interesting by itself (because WW will obviously outperform slam in the case of critical WD), but it becomes interesting when you do the logical thing and extend it by looking at the expected loss in damage due to swing:

5600ap, 200dps, 1.32 haste, 50% crit chance, 3.4 weapon speed for 2.52 hasted speed, impale/axe spec/metagem for 2.28 crit damage modifier:

White crit: (680 + 5600/14 * 3.4) * 2.08 = 4243

Edit: as Liar points out, impale doesn't affect WD crits.

Expectation on damage loss from slam with 25% glancing, 25% regular, 50% crit attack table:

E(WD) = 0.25*1530 + 0.25*2040 + 0.5*4243 = 3014
E(S_cost) = E(WD) * 0.5/2.58 = 3014 * 0.19 = 572

Expected WW and slam:

E(WW) = 0.47*2000 + 0.53*4560 = 3356

Edit: consider the 10% bonus given by t7, pointed out by Hellord

E(S) = 0.5*2290 + 0.5*5221 = 3755
E(S_T7) = 0.50 * (2290*1.1) + 0.50 * (5221*1.1) = 4130
E(S) - E(S_cost) = 3755 - 572 = 3183
E(S_T7) - E(S_cost) = 4130 - 572 = 3558

Edit: so the new conclusion is: with these DPS stats, WW never outperforms slam in a single target fight. However, without the T7 bonus, WW edges slam out by small margin.

hellord · 02/15/09, 9:11 AM

Well I didnt include crit since the bonus multiplier would just favour WW vs Slam, and I was trying to make an extreme example where Slam had the best "opportunity". Even with a slow weapon Slam is only better than ww with a glance expected on next swing.
(poleaxe + metagem = + 0.08 crit bonus)

With a 3.4s your white crit would have been (680 + 5600/14 * 3.4) * 2.08 = 4243

E(WD) = 0.25*1530 + 0.25*2040 + 0.5*4243 = 383 + 510 + 2122 = 3015
E(S_cost) = E(WD) * 0.5/2.68 = 3015 * 0.19 = 573

With a 3.6s your white crit would have been (720 + 5600/14 * 3.6) * 2.08 = 4493

E(WD) = 0.25*1620 + 0.25*2160 + 0.5*4493 = 405 + 540 + 2247 = 3192
E(S_cost) = E(WD) * 0.5/2.72 = 3192 * 0.184 = 587

Expected WW and slam:

E(WW) = 0.47*2040 + 0.53*4925 = 3569
E(S) = 0.50*2410 + 0.50*5495 = 3952
E(S) - E(S_cost) = 3952 - 587 = 3365

Smaller margin but still under WW even at 3.6.

One thing I didnt consider anyway was the 10% slam bonus from t7 that skews those results:
3.4s)
Slam = 3755*1.1 - 573 = 4131 - 573 = 3558 (WW = 3356)
3.6s)
Slam = 3952*1.1 - 647 = 4347 - 587 = 3760 (WW = 3569)

So WW>Slam will be obvious only after we loose tier bonus.

Tankietka · 02/16/09, 5:21 AM

As for Slam vs Swing: I believe Impale works only for abilities, not white swings, which means Slam loses less white damage when taking crits into account.

As for Slam vs Heroic Strike: it all depends on how good gear you have. I did some calculations for my gear and I got the following replace-slam-with-HS points (comparing only HS spam vs Slam spam):
- assuming 100 rage from each swing, HS spam is better than Slam spam when final weapon speed (after all haste) is below 1.9s
- assuming 60 rage from each swing, HS is better than Slam below 1.78s
- assuming 30 rage from each swing, HS is better than Slam below 1.56s

hellord · 02/16/09, 6:56 AM

Removed

Tyvi · 02/16/09, 7:01 AM

Impale only works on specials/yellow damage.

Jrk · 02/17/09, 7:36 PM

From the Prot Perspective:

A) THE STANCE DANCE COST and E) THE DISAPPEARED TALENT FROM BETA

PvE: Agreed, tanks shouldn't be stance dancing in raids, so it is a null issue. I also agree with Jayde. I run with a prot pally, and his BoS is a godsend, that makes the warrior/pally complementary classes. In this day and age of WoW, if you are a warrior and still having rage generation issues, then you are focusing too much on your avoidance, and not enough on your threat generation.

PvP: At first, it seems the change in dance mechanics would cost more than it is worth to do the dance. The only reason to switch at all would be the quick interrcept/hamstring. But if you are prot, getting extra rage for every dodge/block/parry, (aside for mages/boomkin, and priests smart enough not to put their shadowfiend out) then any class, dual wielders especially, should give you a decent rage pool to work with. TM will be a must, but those 2 changes seems to work off each other, least in prot pvp.

D) THE OP SUNDER ARMOR IN PVP

PvP Side
Prot warrior will suffer a damage decrease against all classes, mostly against cloth users. I'm not sure that other warriors would waste 5 gcds to sunder somebody, but well, I am not sure we needed a nerf in damage output tbh.

Disagree. With sunder armor being changed to a percentage base, it is balancing out two major extremities. On one side, with semi-decent gear (and luck..the mage I hit probaly sucked =D) I can hit a mage for 12k with a Shield Slam. On the other side, 5 sunders doesnt make too much of a difference on prot pallies, defensive DK's, and bears. On a percentage base, clothies will not be so vunerable and I will be able to penetrate tougher classes defenses better than before (especially as we reach 3.1, their armor rating will only rise and rise). Also, it is a pain to waste 5 swings on devastate, the glyph works wonders.

Edit: Example: 3925 armor gone w/ 5 sunders..now say your prot dk has 32k armor..he now has 28075 with current sunders..With a 20% armor reduction..that 32k armor (x .8) becomes 25600. A 2475 difference...Shoot, put myself in the formula, 25k armor today becomes 21075. With 3.1 I'll have 20k armor remaining after being sundered. As gear progresses..damage against mail wearers shouldn't change too much. If anything, rogues I dominate now will have a bit more cushion, but not as much as clothies. The balance Blizz is going for is for rock to not to be OP against scissor.
Thank you for the insight. I hope my prot perspective has been helpful.

kahalm · 02/17/09, 8:24 PM

First read then think then think again if you are in the wrong threat. sorry for that

Jrk · 02/20/09, 7:57 PM

Sidenote: Might be useless mentioning, but nothing has power like numbers on forums. I talked to a GM today, asking for their opinion on a suggestion. They said GM's are not allowed to give their opinions on any suggestions given to them by players directly, and proceeded to direct me to the suggestion forum. I said, "Ok, well here's my idea..."

Endless Rage Potion
Req Alchemy (400)
Req lvl 80

Gives 20-35 rage.
"Sanctioned for Arenas."

Same cooldown as the other endless potions, well all pots. Mats would be 20 Mighty Rage Potions, 20 Fireleaf, 1 Enchanted Vial. This would not only spur interest in different proffesion choice combos, as well as help warriors in moments of needing a quick up. Could be applied to tanking, to pvp.

The GM then responds, "You have two options on how to handle this. You can go on the forums, or I can have you sign a legal statement to Blizzard with you having to agree to the terms listed. Then, it will be sent straight to the developers." I figured it would be a fax, but the GM copied pasted the contract in game. I would be boncing off the walls if this shows up in 3.1.

DarkS · 02/24/09, 7:21 AM

* Titan's Grip (Tier 11) now reduces physical damage you deal by 10%.

Reported by MMO-Champion Undocumented Changes. I'm the only one seeing this as a bit abusive? 10% physical damage is 10% less overall damage. Mates, this hurts.

Vampyrr · 02/26/09, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by Jrk

The GM then responds, "You have two options on how to handle this. You can go on the forums, or I can have you sign a legal statement to Blizzard with you having to agree to the terms listed. Then, it will be sent straight to the developers." I figured it would be a fax, but the GM copied pasted the contract in game. I would be boncing off the walls if this shows up in 3.1.

what?

Namo · 02/26/09, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by DarkS

Reported by MMO-Champion Undocumented Changes. I'm the only one seeing this as a bit abusive? 10% physical damage is 10% less overall damage. Mates, this hurts.

According to Blizz, they are not only lowering warrior dps, but also nerfing other classes. So overall we should still be on pair with rogues, mages, warlocks and hunter.

That's what they plan anyway :whistle: