It should add 5% AP as threat since patch 3. The same threat mod is applied to devastate aswell.

Have we run the numbers on Grim Toll vs other trinket options and ArP cap? I've looked around a bit since the ArP formulae got finalized, but I couldn't find anything.

[edit: rewrite/clarification - I was asking if we should shoot for ArP hard cap - Grim Toll's proc value or not. The values you posted in other thread were what precipitated this post, Landsoul]

From Landsoul's post in Combat Ratings thread, which he reposted below:
ArP Cap FF + Sunder for 0% = 1039 (Fury)
ArP Cap Battle + FF + Sunder for 0% = 916 (Arms)
ArP Cap Battle + FF + Sunder + Mace for 0% = 731 (Arms/Mace)
Grim Toll Proc value = 612 ArP

When using Grim Toll, I would expect the numbers to shoot for are: 427(fury), 304(arms) and 119(mace/arms)

Do one of you guys with a working 3.1 model have a projection on where ArP drops to <1.0 SEP for ppl who use Grim Toll and exceed these 427/304/119 numbers (wasting some of proc's ArP)? That answer would be the point at which to switch from ArP to Str as your gem stat.

Mace probably wants to either not use Grim Toll or shoot for much less ArP than other specs. I would figure Grim Toll is not Mace's best trinket, since 119 ArP you can hit off the 226 boots + neck.

Also - in 3.1, it seems like Mace may become the worst spec as long as enough ArP exists on gear.
In 3.1, Mace is now worth ~185 ArP rating vs ~231 ArP rating in 3.09.
Axe is worth ~230 crit and then some (crit bonus).

Assume: in 3.09, mace is meant to give rating equal to Axe.
Result: in 3.10, Mace gives 45 less rating than Axe, making it pretty terrible as long as you can cap w/o it.

I suggest someone post to the PTR forum and explain the new weaponspec discrepancy and try to get mace moved to 20%, as would be appropriate for new ArP ratings. I'm tempban @ wowforum atm, or I would. (word to wise: don't post "yo momma is like flame leviathan" in a "wow jokes" thread, lawl)

With sunder and FF, Armor penetration then caps out at 84.324%

amount of buffs/debuffs	amount ArP% needed	rating required	With Grim Toll proc
None	100	1232	620
Sunder	87.171	1074	462
Sunder+FF	84.324	1039	427
Sunder+FF+Arms	74.324	916	304
Sunder+FF+Arms+Mace	59.324	731	119

Since grim toll proc is only about 20% of the time, there's probably a few things that could happen
1) Stop gemming ArP passed 100% penetration with Grim Toll proc
2) Keep gemming ArP passed 100% penetration w/proc because it is down 80% of the time
3) Use another trinket if you can get enough ArP (I don't think that's likely)

Basically it would come down to 80% of the time you have a lower amount of penetration and 20% of the time you have 100% You'd have to use some kind of balance. I'd bet money that option 2) will happen.

I'd actually say #3 is the most likely. It's quite possible in Ulduar gear to hit the arpen cap while having axe spec even. Grim Toll just gets worse and worse as you approach it, and trinkets like wrathstone/pyrite infuser can certainly compete with it after a point.

Let's say the average value of ArPen is 1.5 SEP and hit is 1.3 SEP(assuming you need it all to reach cap).

Compared to pyrite infuser, solve (95*1.3 + 205.67 * .437) = 83*1.3 + .2x * 1.5, and you get x = 351.6. So, once the proc is less than 351.6 rating(using these SEP values at least), pyrite infuser takes the lead. That would be at 565 ArPen rating with sunder/ff/bstance. This doesn't take into account the fact that you're trading a potentially stronger trinket for a weaker trinket, but that's not important since ArPen will inevitably reach those levels since arpen is better than strength even while you're past the point where you're cutting into GT's effectiveness. What I mean is, #2 will be superior to #1, and by following #2, you will inevitably reach #3, rendering Grim Toll obsolete.

3 cappable stats and 1 having increasing returns up to the cap makes gearing a melee so fun

delete please

Its possible in Ulduar gear to get ~1000 ArP rating? That doesn't seem likely to me.

I edited a sheet to use the armor formula landsoul posted above, ArP was ~1.08 SEP until I hit 100% penetration with Grim Toll up, then it dropped to about .8 SEP.

Even though the sheet averages, Grim Toll came out about everything but Wrathstone and Greatness SEP wise. I could do more in depth stuff but I want to wait for the next version of the sheet.

While you can get the ArP numbers, its a lot harder to do it while keeping hit/expertise caps. Especially since we need another 2% exp in 3.1. There are very few items that have ArP and either hit or exp.

As you near the ArPen cap, it becomes so good that it doesn't even matter if you're ignoring the hit/exp caps. *This is assuming they fix the bug and turn 1.0125 into 1.25.

I dont think the sheet supports that assumption. Even at next to 100% armor pen, being below hit or exp cap puts them at a higher SEP.

I think we have established that Arp is much nicer in 3.1 than live, but is it actually worth stacking more than str if you are Arms? Fury is a no, obviously. I would like to know how much more DPS an Arp stacked Arms Warrior does (if indeed, any) than an evenly geared Arms Warrior.

I'm pretty sure that you want to stack ArP as fury also. The math isn't any different aside from arms starting with 10% more and fury having more viable stats than arms. I'd advise going for the 427 ArP "grim toll softcap" as fury, as long as you've got the gear around to tank your hit down that low.

[Edit: My dumb. The math IS different as stated below because of fury's new 20% STR thing that I totally forgot about when making this post. You're probably right that this makes ArP like .9 or something, leaving it below STR but above all else. It'll take more math to determine if it's worth it to hit the cap, as ArP's value increases dramatically as you approach cap. No longer necessarily advise softcap, but do advise Grim Toll over MoT]

ArP does give the same value for both, obviously, but fury still gets 20% more STR, and the question was if ArP is worth stacking over strength.

It depends on how much AP you have.
At some point in AP inversely proportional to your ArP, 1 point of arp is better than 1 point of STR.
The reason is that the %damage increase you get stacking strength will dimish the more you have, and the buffs from Imp berz and bok doesn't turn this curve into an increasing one, they'll just raise it a bit.

On the other side Arp is an increasing curve up to the cap.

So the question is not IF it is worth but WHEN it is worth stacking arp instead of STR.

While its not something new - just making some calculations, i made simple tables of how ArP works, and how it compares to 3.0. For Battle stance - simply add 123 ArP to your char , and for mace spec 185.

First - damage dealt
That shows how much faster the ArP scales with itself with new patch. Now to expand that I made a new table with damage increase over no ArP setting and in () over previous step (the latter shows how value of extra points change).

Increase of ArP in last column - it shows how much going from previous ArP step to new one got improved by patch. First number is increase of total ArP, in () , of last 250 points. 1250 is perfectly possible with new gear+ grim toll and especially mace spec etc.

Also my rough calculations show that ArP is around 20% more powerful then STR for arms - i havent seen reliable models yet. Its pretty easy to see too. 1250 ArP for example increases damage by 51%. While changing it to STR (which would produce impressive 2860 attack power), would be of course amazing - I dont think it comes close to ArP effectiveness. Of course 1250 is a extreme example - and at 500 rating its much less clear (1144 AP vs 15.63% damage), mind that with grim toll (around 120 average ArP), battle stance (126 ArP), arms warrior STARTS at ~250 ArP. Add to it the ~250-300 rating most of us already have or easily CAN have (double strike legplates to make use of lower exp cap for arms + recluse chest + collision ring+t7 shoulders is 200+ alone - and it gets better then that in ulduar) - we will have ~500 ArP to start with. From there stacking to 750 is already pretty good (8.48% damage vs 572 AP).

That doesnt count deep wounds/rend obviously. However mind it that because of added damage on MS and Slam, they scale a bit slower then whites - which most people use for calculations. Weapon + skill contribution for MS with BOH for example is equal to 5400 AP, so coupled with around 6000 raid buffed AP (which i seem to get for ulduar WHILE using ArP gems - putting me over 700 ArP easily - with STR gemming its higher), we are adding our 572 ap to 11400 base - so we can talk about 5% increase on the MS dmg vs 9.27% through ArP. Additionally Executes scale a lot worse - their AP counting skill contribution is at ~19000 to start with - so 250 str would boost the damage only by less then 3%.

All in all like i said, we will have around 500 ArP to start with. Gemming will easily produce further 200 ArP. So arms warrior will start at around 700 ArP. Additionally, unlike other people say, my calculations show that stacking ArP is worth it even above "grim toll cap". With uptime a bit below 20% which seems true for arms (assumed 20%) even reduced by that factor ArP is still better then STR. Separate question would be - when to drop Grim Toll (and its a hard one, its not as easy to stack hit for arms as it seems - making the hit on grim toll - the "bane" of the trinket in 3.0 for fury, actually a very strong asset)

Grim toll is a whole different bag of worms. I'm not so sure it's a good idea to model it as average ArP, because its returns are pretty bad if you're at 1030 ArP and it takes you to 1642. If you're using GT at all, you pretty much want the proc to cap you out.

Observed GT uptime is ~20%, I found in other threads.

GT proc maxes out at a 23.82% increase (at 427 ArP + sunder/ff). Count Battle as 123 ArP and Mace as 185 ArP for calcs.

	_____	_____	_____	_____	_____	_____	_____	_____	_____	_____	_____	_____	_____	_____	_____	_____	_____	_____	_____	_____	_____	_____	_____
Char ArP	0	50	100	150	200	250	300	350	400	427	450	500	550	600	650	700	750	800	850	900	950	1000	1039
GT ArP	612	612	612	612	612	612	612	612	612	612	589	539	489	439	389	339	289	239	189	139	89	39	0
GT%inc	16.8	17.4	18.1	18.9	19.6	20.5	21.3	22.3	23.3	23.8	23.1	21.6	20.0	18.3	16.6	14.8	12.9	10.9	8.8	6.7	4.3	1.9	0
%inc*.2	3.36	3.49	3.62	3.77	3.93	4.09	4.27	4.45	4.65	4.76	4.62	4.32	4.00	3.66	3.31	2.95	2.57	2.17	1.76	1.33	0.87	0.39	0

This is comparing how much ArP you have from yourself, compared to how much ArP out of the 612 from Grim Toll you're going to keep. Then the %increase that results from taking away all the remaining armor on the mob, then 20% of that increase (factoring uptime in for total non-dot damage increase)

If someone can model the other candidates for 3rd best trinket, we could figure out the breaking point in ArP past 427 where that other trinket is likely to give you more of a % damage increase than Grim Toll.

[edit: table extended so it includes 0 ArP through 427.
Fun fact: The first 600 ArP gives about the same return as the last 400 ArP that caps you.
Looks like ArP increases in value by about 150% compared to the start when you approach the cap]

I copied a sheet, using the same gear, and set the uptime on Grim Toll to 0% on one and 100% on the other. Then I multiplied each sheet's dps by their appropriate uptime, ~20% and ~80%. That takes care of it being averaged when armor isn't really linear.

I tested a set with enough ArP to cap when Grim Toll was up against a set with Mirror of Truth instead of GT. It took the MoT set an additional 65 ArP rating to equal the dps as using GT. The same test with Greatness took 27 ArP rating to equal GT.
So once you reach the cap with GT procced, its worth it to switch after you get another 65 or 27 ArP(or equivalent in SEP I guess) past that.

This is for fury though, so no mace/stance bonus which I'm sure would change things.

Unchanged. I was looking to see when Grim Toll lost its effectiveness in relation to other trinkets.

Your intention is clear to me.
It's just that if you compared it with the unchanged GT set, you can (semi)conclude that GT is worth MoT + 65 ArP or Greatness + 27 ArP.
But IMHO you cannot conclude that you should exchange GT for an MoT or Greatness card once you have aquired additional 65 or 27 ArP on the rest of your gear. The appropriate comparison in this case would be MoT + x ArP vs GT + x ArP.

Thanks for the testing!

Was the gearset you used gaining the full 1.9 SEP for GT providing hit up to the yellow cap? This would dramatically alter GT's value. Either way it's valuable info, because it will be very difficult for most of the fury warriors to drop so much hit that GT caps them with the new STR multiplier pushing us away from leather. I don't think it's even possible to have only 80 hit pre-GT without overcapping expertise or using leather/mail at ilvl 213/226.

As far as battle and mace go, just think of them as 123 and 185 ArP respectively. They function exactly like ArP on gear. Greatness would lose relative value for Arms due to fury's STR multiplier, and there's different rend/DW math, but the numbers will be similar if you count the arms buffs as regular ArP. Also: noone should ever use GT and mace spec if they can avoid it. 3.1 Mace is AWFUL unless it caps you in a way you can't reach w/o it

Interesting that your testing dispels the notion that GT is #2. GT = #1 at exactly the ArP cap, even for the Greatness' best spec.

Also worth noting that you calculated vs gaining ArP above the cap. The overall armor reduction from GT is almost the same if your ArP cannot reach the cap as it going above the cap as you modelled. Note the values on my chart above at 350 and 400, compared to 450 and 500. I would expect this makes trinket math just below the cap similar to trinket math just above the cap (except that below the cap ArP would have a very high SEP value, so you really want to cap out if you can)

Ah I see now. You are correct, I only did GT vs MoT + ArP, so you would need a little more than 65 to make it worth the switch probably. I'll probably do more fiddling today.

Yes the gear was yellow capped without GT. Though hit and ArP are scattered on Ulduar gear which might make GT even more useful.

Rage gained from parry and dodge:

Did they take that out of the patch notes? I saw a post on MMOC that stated that it was removed from the patch notes. Are we still getting this? Anyone have any information or was this an oversight?

I could not notice any rage gain by dodging or blocking. Seems like we're left behind after DK got their "RP after avoid" and BoRef was made Paladin-only..