Did they take that out of the patch notes? I saw a post on MMOC that stated that it was removed from the patch notes. Are we still getting this? Anyone have any information or was this an oversight?
It depends on how much AP you have.
At some point in AP inversely proportional to your ArP, 1 point of arp is better than 1 point of STR.
The reason is that the %damage increase you get stacking strength will dimish the more you have, and the buffs from Imp berz and bok doesn't turn this curve into an increasing one, they'll just raise it a bit.
On the other side Arp is an increasing curve up to the cap.
So the question is not IF it is worth but WHEN it is worth stacking arp instead of STR.
Exactly. That is just as additive (str, AP etc) vs multiplicative (crit, hit, ArP etc) stats mechanics work. The question is: when faster-decreasing additive curve cross with slower decreasing (or even increasing in ArP case) multiplicative curve. Any1 have numbers from spreadsheet?
I just made some maths about T8(tank) already known and available 226 and even 239 ilvl items in Ulduar.
I precise i did the maths with Blacksmith/Jewelcrafting which you should have while optimizing yourself :p
In fact, I did the math also keeping in mind to have the 4pieces tank bonus, to see whether wee lose so much.
In fact, T8 pieces are VERY GOOD, and with +42 stam gem some pieces (leggs for example) are nearly as good as 239ilvl leggplates (void thing...) just because of the bonus and gems (again, I'm assuming you're jewelcrafter).
So I ended up with the following statement :
You should go for 4 pieces of the T8 set but maybe drop the gloves for 239ilvl ones without losing stats.
And so, you'll keep that strong bonus for almost all the fights where magical damage seem high.
The perfect (as far as i know, maybe some loots unknown are better) set would be something like this :
Helm T8
Legs T8 + dragon eye
Gloves 239
Shoulder T8 24stam gems (+ 4 def bonus)
Chest T8
Neck 239 +dragon eye(depends on your current gear)
Cloak 239 exp/stam (6 stam bonus)
Wrist flame leviathan
Arme 239 (mace) exp/stam (+6 stam)
Shield ? Don't really any idea since the only shield we know is more a threat one)
Veranus gun
Trinket1 Ignus (167 stam)
Trinket2 vezax or jewel'ones (+ dragon eye if jewel)
Ring1 Auraia's one
Ring2 flame leviathan's one
Boots emblem +dragon eye
Ceinture emblem +exp/stam (9 stam bonus)
As you can see, there are far more ways to gem up with dragoneye, but the best choice would be leggs, emblem boots, 239 's neck if you don't use the jewelcrafter 's trinket.
This set represents around 8% more stam than T7 (I estimated it around 36k unbuff)
I just made some maths about T8(tank) already known and available 226 and even 239 ilvl items in Ulduar.
I precise i did the maths with Blacksmith/Jewelcrafting which you should have while optimizing yourself :p
In fact, I did the math also keeping in mind to have the 4pieces tank bonus, to see whether wee lose so much.
In fact, T8 pieces are VERY GOOD, and with +42 stam gem some pieces (leggs for example) are nearly as good as 239ilvl leggplates (void thing...) just because of the bonus and gems (again, I'm assuming you're jewelcrafter).
So I ended up with the following statement :
You should go for 4 pieces of the T8 set but maybe drop the gloves for 239ilvl ones without losing stats.
And so, you'll keep that strong bonus for almost all the fights where magical damage seem high.
The perfect (as far as i know, maybe some loots unknown are better) set would be something like this :
Helm T8
Legs T8 + dragon eye
Gloves 239
Shoulder T8 24stam gems (+ 4 def bonus)
Chest T8
Neck 239 +dragon eye(depends on your current gear)
Cloak 239 exp/stam (6 stam bonus)
Wrist flame leviathan
Arme 239 (mace) exp/stam (+6 stam)
Shield ? Don't really any idea since the only shield we know is more a threat one)
Veranus gun
Trinket1 Ignus (167 stam)
Trinket2 vezax or jewel'ones (+ dragon eye if jewel)
Ring1 Auraia's one
Ring2 flame leviathan's one
Boots emblem +dragon eye
Ceinture emblem +exp/stam (9 stam bonus)
As you can see, there are far more ways to gem up with dragoneye, but the best choice would be leggs, emblem boots, 239 's neck if you don't use the jewelcrafter 's trinket.
This set represents around 8% more stam than T7 (I estimated it around 36k unbuff)
Any conversation about best in slot gear from Ulduar should include the saronite plated legguards (ilvl 226, two sockets, itemized for defense, dodge and armor). They will probably be the single biggest upgrade for any plate tank in the zone and are comparable to pieces that are 13 ilvls higher (leviathan's coil is a close second). T8 legs are nowhere near the same quality.
Also, if you're going for the 4 pc bonus, you should be using pieces that have the lowest itemvalue sacrifice vs an ilvl 239 piece (assuming everything is properly itemized). Legs and Chestpieces have the highest itemvalue for the slot, so moving from a 226 to a 239 for that slot is a much bigger over all stat increase than it is for your gloves. In addition, the T8 gloves are very well itemized and the T8 pants and chest are not. So if you're going to substitute something, it should be for either of those two slots.
I originally thought this was a comment on parry/dodge rage, but Xav corrected me. It's actually a post about stance dancing rage loss, they were thinking about having you lose a % of your rage when you shifted instead of dropping to 25 rage or less.
I originally thought this was a comment on parry/dodge rage, but Xav corrected me. It's actually a post about stance dancing rage loss, they were thinking about having you lose a % of your rage when you shifted instead of dropping to 25 rage or less.
Thanks for updating that. I apologize for the oversight. I try and stay away from most of the WoW official forums due to the majority of posts looking like those seen in that link.
On another tanking-related note, I came across a pretty cool tool for evaluating TPS: WowWebStats Tps Calculator
At first glance it seems pretty accurate but I need to look at it a little more closely still.
Yeah you're right fellwraith
But I did the maths with the known items and I didn't see any 239 chest at all so far (There will be, but I don't know the stats), same thing for the headslot.
And as far as the void legplates (239) are concerned, there are better, it's obvious but you lose much stats by putting a dragon's eye on it while you succeed to "catch up" his stats by putting a dragon's eye on T8 leggs. (less stam, more str, more BV, less expertise...) but well... the real question is : Can we get rid off the T8 4 pieces bonus according to Ulduar's encounters (Which I don't know really not to spoil the pleasure of discovering).
As usual, several sets will be necessary but we'll see whether to keep the bonus in any situation worths it.
And as far as the rage generation after parry/dodge is concerned, either the patch 3.1 is released this week and I highly doubt it will be included or it is released next week which give them time to think about warrior's last changes.
I guess it will be the second option.
I wanted to ask if the talent tree was finalized on any sites but I see the patch is live now. Is it okay to discuss further in this post or go to in-depth discussion now?
With sunder and FF, Armor penetration then caps out at 84.324%
amount of buffs/debuffs
amount ArP% needed
rating required
With Grim Toll proc
None
100
1232
620
Sunder
87.171
1074
462
Sunder+FF
84.324
1039
427
Sunder+FF+Arms
74.324
916
304
Sunder+FF+Arms+Mace
59.324
731
119
Since grim toll proc is only about 20% of the time, there's probably a few things that could happen
1) Stop gemming ArP passed 100% penetration with Grim Toll proc
2) Keep gemming ArP passed 100% penetration w/proc because it is down 80% of the time
3) Use another trinket if you can get enough ArP (I don't think that's likely)
Basically it would come down to 80% of the time you have a lower amount of penetration and 20% of the time you have 100% You'd have to use some kind of balance. I'd bet money that option 2) will happen.
I have been reading your posts and Dysent's on arena junkies and I am still a little confused. Currently I am fury with 2 BoH, and planned on going arms at 3.1, but according to the number crunching from you guys it shows that armor pen seems much better then all of my strength gems. I don't have a grim toll and didn't plan on using one, but the only armor pen I currently have is the 226 boots and neck, should I regem Everything with armor pen with the very little armor pen I sit at? Assuming 3x27(prismatics) + 7x16ArP + 226 boots and 226 neck are the only armor pen that I have? I obviously could pick up more armor pen to get closer to the cap when ulduar comes out, but what should I do currently?
Sorry, I have a learning curve.
Edit: Also, for pvp should I do the same, regem all of my gear for armor pen?
I have been reading your posts and Dysent's on arena junkies and I am still a little confused. Currently I am fury with 2 BoH, and planned on going arms at 3.1, but according to the number crunching from you guys it shows that armor pen seems much better then all of my strength gems. I don't have a grim toll and didn't plan on using one, but the only armor pen I currently have is the 226 boots and neck, should I regem Everything with armor pen with the very little armor pen I sit at? Assuming 3x27(prismatics) + 7x16ArP + 226 boots and 226 neck are the only armor pen that I have? I obviously could pick up more armor pen to get closer to the cap when ulduar comes out, but what should I do currently?
Sorry, I have a learning curve.
Edit: Also, for pvp should I do the same, regem all of my gear for armor pen?
My thread on AJ is pretty much just a verbatim reposting for those guys' benefit, cept with the numbers crunched for pvp vice pve.
Tbqh, the best thing you can do is to wait for Landsoul to publish his updated spreadsheet in the next day or two once the ArP info is finalized and use that to determine your best choices for your specific gear level.
That said, I believe even the fury math favors ArP gemming at 0 ArP, but I'm 100% sure the Arms math does.
My thread on AJ is pretty much just a verbatim reposting for those guys' benefit, cept with the numbers crunched for pvp vice pve.
Tbqh, the best thing you can do is to wait for Landsoul to publish his updated spreadsheet in the next day or two once the ArP info is finalized and use that to determine your best choices for your specific gear level.
That said, I believe even the fury math favors ArP gemming at 0 ArP, but I'm 100% sure the Arms math does.
Yeah, I figured I would wait before dropping a few hundred gold on gems, but I was curious on what you put on the AJ thread with grim toll, if I don't use grim toll is it even worth using armor pen gems?
Yeah, I figured I would wait before dropping a few hundred gold on gems, but I was curious on what you put on the AJ thread with grim toll, if I don't use grim toll is it even worth using armor pen gems?
Grim Toll just makes it easier to cap - ArP is still good.
I'm not sure i'd suggest it for PvP without a GT, though time will tell on that one.
And it'll be another 30-45m before I can tell you if ArP is still bugged even.
Has anyone gotten that data yet?
-----------
Just tested: same results. ArP still bugged with a 19% penalty. I strongly suggest not going ArP.
So from what I have seen yesterday My DPS as TG is much lower. I need to grab a better raid spec. Do you guys think is it worth going Armor Pen Arms Bleed Spec? or is Fury gonna be a good build even after this nerf?
I am not happy with the TG nerf at all but what can you do
Did someone have Faerie Fire up on the mob?
At y=0.05, the output lines up, expected (incl. nerf) as 1363.869.
I ask because I went nuts trying to figure out what was wrong with my numbers one day, then I realized someone had FF'd the dummy.
Nope, I am only person on that dummy (yay for low pop servers?) and the only debuff is Deep Wounds. I was Arms as a dual spec last night so unless there's a bug with that carrying over to my Fury deep wounds, that shouldn't affect it.
Wasn't in Battle Stance (as there are WWs in the test) and definitely was spec'd fury. Just went back to test with the 3657 AP set and still got the 1364/3099 hit/crit numbers.
Nope, I am only person on that dummy (yay for low pop servers?) and the only debuff is Deep Wounds. I was Arms as a dual spec last night so unless there's a bug with that carrying over to my Fury deep wounds, that shouldn't affect it.
Wasn't in Battle Stance (as there are WWs in the test) and definitely was spec'd fury. Just went back to test with the 3657 AP set and still got the 1364/3099 hit/crit numbers.
Whoa, weird. That model has been very good at predicting exact values.
Can you try against the heroic dummy as well to be sure it's not a level thing? It would actually make a lot of sense and explain blizz silence if there's an enemy level based ArP suppression.
It might be time to get a nice big data set together and go back to the drawing board if the model suddenly stops fitting.
Gah, wish I was at home and not at work. I'm excited to see any number that exceeds expected, but puzzled at anything that shows a significant deviation from both modeled values. I'm sure a lot of us will be testing exhaustively to figure out why it doesn't fit current numbers.
Whoa, weird. That model has been very good at predicting exact values.
Can you try against the heroic dummy as well to be sure it's not a level thing? It would actually make a lot of sense and explain blizz silence if there's an enemy level based ArP suppression.
It might be time to get a nice big data set together and go back to the drawing board if the model suddenly stops fitting.
Gah, wish I was at home and not at work. I'm excited to see any number that exceeds expected, but puzzled at anything that shows a significant deviation from both modeled values. I'm sure a lot of us will be testing exhaustively to figure out why it doesn't fit current numbers.
I'm heading on a flight out of town in a bit but I'll test on a heroic dummy and also on a guildmate with a determined armor and damage mitigation value so I can see if the problem is that implied armor is wrong or if the ArP part is.
I doublechecked this. No substantive change I can see. Did a ton of testing and it all fit the current model on the 83 dummy. Need to get the right armor value for the 80 dummy.
I respecced 0/31/0 just to be sure it wasn't some weird interaction going on. I can't even get predicted values at 0 ArP right now. I'm gonna try to get a nice data set together against a heroic dummy and repeat for nonheroic.
Alright, it looks like the problems with your data are two things:
1. the training dummy at lvl 80 doesn't quite fit the model. need to correct constant A for lvl80, I think.
2. I got proper numbers on heroic dummy when I had a 0-31-0 spec. Maybe there's a talent messing it up by listing BT at the wrong value.
Are we sure about that constant A? Like vs a boss dummy, shouldn't it be 16635? And 16635 produces incorrect data...
04/09/09, 2:54 PM
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