Apologies if this has been covered, but I didn't see a calculation of this type done yet. I saw the info about a theoretical vertical asymptote at 300% armor penetration, so I wanted to find out the maximum theoretical armor penetration obtainable with existing gear and buffs, to the exclusion of all other stats.

Note: All gems are assumed to be +16 ArPen. I've excluded tradeskill gems and extra sockets, and have instead included them in profession bonuses at the end. I'm assuming a Mace Spec Warrior for this estimate. Please let me know if there are any mistakes or omissions, because I'm uncertain of the interactions between some of the effects used. Any feedback is appreciated.


Gear List:

2H: 84 - [Ironsoul], Enchant: Executioner
Ranged: 42 - [Twirling Blades], 1 Gem
Head: 84 - [Conqueror's Siegebreaker Helmet], 1 Gem
Neck: 64 - [Frigid Strength of Hodir], 1 Gem
Should: 66 - [Treacherous Shoulderpads], 1 Gem
Chest: 113 - [Winter's Icy Embrace], 2 Gems
Waist: 72 - [Belt of the Betrayed], 1 Gems (w/Buckle)
Legs: 114 - [Legguards of Cunning Deception], 3 Gems
Feet: 84 - [Melancholy Sabatons]
Wrist: 46 - [Fluxing Energy Coils], 1 Gem
Hands: 60 - [Gauntlets of the Wretched]
Ring: 57 - [Titanium Impact Band], 1 Gem
Ring: 49 - [Brann's Signet Ring], 1 Gem
Trink: 665 - [Mjolnir Runestone] (Proc)
Trink: 612 - [Grim Toll] (Proc)

Food: 40 - [Hearty Rhino]
Elixir: 45 - [Elixir of Armor Piercing]

Totaling this up, we get 2297. If we assume BS/JC as professions, that adds 32+37 = 69. So we're up to 2366 so far, which is 184.70% armor reduction. Now, adding in debuffs, enchants, and talents:

Sunder Armor - 20%
Shattering Throw - 20%
Faerie Fire - 5%
Mace Specialization - 15%
Battle Stance - 10%
Executioner - 120 Rating (9.37%)

Assuming these are additive reductions, that's another 79.37%, so we're sitting at 264.07%. The only way I can think of to cheat beyond this would be to do the test in ZA and use the [Amani Charm of the Bloodletter] for an additional 142 rating (11.08%).

Total: 275.15%

Unless I've missed something, we can't get any higher than this with known gear, and several procs would have to line up to have it happen (GT, MR, Exec, Shattering, and the single Charm hit). It's not the 300% I was hoping for, so we can't destroy the universe just yet. However, by Icecrown gear levels we may well be able to reach that number, so any potential black holes in the code need to be addressed well before that.


Edit #2: In reading the Rogue forum, I noticed [The Dusk Blade]. You could put a [Blackout Truncheon] in the MH, going from 84 ArPen to 32 (-52), but gain 465 ArPen from the proc. The net gain is 413 rating (32.24%). Tacked onto the 275.15%, this puts us at 307.39%. So if none of these buffs overwrite each other, it's theoretically possible to hit the asymptote with current gear, albeit very hard to line up the procs.


Edit #1: Deleted the erroneous gem references. They were from items I'd used earlier in the same slots. The total ArPen on each item is correct, though. Also accounted for (11*3) + 4 from the three Dragon's Eyes plus a socket bonus; not sure what I was smoking thinking it was a single +24 gem. I'm leaving out the Stormjewel for now, since out of the 96 red gems found thus far on Wowhead, only the Agi, Str, and Spellpower types have been confirmed.

Ironsoul does not have gem slots, takes 2x16 ArPen out of your calculation.

Also judging by GCs comments it could lead to the possibility that they just wont put more ArP on gear going into later raiding. They seem well aware of its power and may just limit the amount available to us rather than actually nerf it at some point.

The gauntlet has no socket -> -16 Arp.

1 Item would get the +20 Arp gem from the fishing daily -> +4 more.

As JC I would sockel 3* [Fractured Dragon's Eye] (+27 ArP instead of +16 ArP) -> 3*11 = 33 Arp-Bonus for JC plus
+4 more, because I would add the prismatic ArP-Gem into [Titanium Impact Band], so I would get the +4 ArP socket bonus from it too -> +37 Arp-Bonus for JCs.

Fishing dailies provide stormjewels... where you can only have one stormjewel on at any given time.

I have yet to see a "fractured stormjewel" that would be a 20 ArP gem via fishing. There's not one on thottbot or wowhead.

What's the 20ArP gem that you can fish up? I would be really excited to learn there actually is one and I'm just not looking under the right name.

It would most likely be Fractured, since the other Stormjewels all keep their appropriate names. Wowhead's data for ~90 red gems fished up has only yielded three stats: Str, Agi, and Spellpower. Unless it's suddenly found, I think it's safe to assume it doesn't exist.

I've made an update to my post above; it looks like it is possible to get over 300% Armor Pen with currently existing mechanics, if the listed proc effects indeed stack as suggested. However, testing it would be extremely difficult, and the 300% would only be maintained for a single unpredictable hit. Testing lesser amounts in the 200-250% range should be significantly easier.

I'm going to feel really stupid if I somehow missed this, but what cape were you using in that list?

[Drape of the Faceless General]

While it still won't put you at 300%, its got 62 ArP when double socketed.

Alright my first post, ive been reading the forums constantly, and every thing i read up to this point is:

1) Get max ARM Pen as possible, im sorry fury is dead and gone.
2) Screw str and crit and get as much arm pen as possible?

Its all very complex formulas you guys have conjured and it blows my mind lol, but im really here to maximize dps and push above 5k in a 10 man raid..

You probably read it wrong.
- There is no absolute statement about getting max ArP.
- 1 & 2 are the same
- Crit is not really viable for sockets unless you use STR/Crit gems with very low gear.
- There are requirements before you can make ArP viable for sockets, these requirements are both Ap And Arp from gear.
- The formula is complex but just cause you read the one that translates the whole process into damage done to target. The process is rather simple in a raid: there is only 1 armor class and thus only one situation. with debuffs a boss target has 8089 armor and your penetration works on a smaller value: 7774. So 1% arp is 77.74 armor removed from a pool of 8089 (once you factor in sunder and ff on a boss target with 10643 armor).
- In a 10 men raid to maximize dps you still need to maximize synergies first. Once you get all buffs for melees you then work in the same environment as a 25men raid. There's no "5k mark" cause of differences among fights.
- Fury is not dead, is just more demanding in therms of gear but will pull out in dps once close to BiS.

It's a bit disheartening to see people using constantly "Long time reader, first time poster" formula and then demonstrating in few lines that they barely read last page.

Fury is said to be buffed quite alot. In ulduar gear and beyond fury will no doubt outshine arms.

Seeing how we have no idea what changes will be made I'd think this is a bit premature. Hopefully in addressing what I consider a minor issue of warrior DPS lagging behind slightly at the moment they also address the larger issue that warriors scale at an unstable rate.

What I consider an usable rate is that pre-3.1 warrior DPS only became a problem once they where at or close to BIS for the current content. With the current changes this patch people seem to think (though we are not sure at this point) that once warriors return to BIS for the current content they will at least be better in the DPS race then right now. Maybe not upfront, but at least respectable.

I feel like the biggest challenge for balancing warriors is that where every the end up on the DPS scale that they actually stay there as the tiers of gear increase. This way whatever changes are made to balance warriors in the current content won't go out of whack for the next tier.

I think the root of this problem is that rage generation is dependent on our gear, our specials are dependent on rage, and our damage is dependent on our gear and specials. So it is like an exponential increase in our damage based on gear, were other classes or more linear (not totally true, other class do scale in a none linear fashion in their own ways). The problem also seems to be more Fury based than Arms. Arms is more GCD restricted than rage.

So in the end I hope that whatever fix that goes into Fury addresses this problem. What that could be, I've been thinking about it, but haven't come up with anything that hasn't been said. And I do hope for a DPS boost also .

P.S. I'd consider it a fail if Blizzard makes one DPS spec better than the other. I enjoy arms more, and wouldn't be too happy if I have the decision one which DPS spec to use taken away.

Well guys, it was fun while it lasted. Here's the results of some controlled BT tests that I did on a target dummy this morning (check armor in sig to see spec and gear used)

Hit = damage from a non-crit BT
G = Grim toll proc up
M = Mjolnir proc up
2 = Both procs up
S = 5 stacks of sunder up

Base: 524+BS
Tooltip:2 1592

Hit 1178
Hit+G 1456
Hit+M 1457
Hit+S 1277
Hit+S+G 1580
Hit+S+M 1580
Hit+S+2 1580

With Faerie Fire:

Tooltip:2 1592
Hit 1201
Hit+G 1486
Hit+M 1485
Hit+2 1486
Hit+S 1294
Hit+S+G 1591
Hit+S+M 1592
Hit+S+2 1591

Compare this to my ArP Tests I did a couple weeks when I had gotten my runestone, but the ArP nerf was not yet in place:


Tooltip BT: 1665
ArP: 448 + Battle stance

BT: 1202 (27.8% reduction)
BT+1 trink: 1495 (10.2% reduction)
BT+2 trink: 2033 (negative armor, 22% tooltip increase)
BT+1+Sun+Faer: 1623 (2.5% reduction)
BT+2+Sun+Faer: 2200 (negative armor, 32.1% tooltip increase)


Conclusions:
-Total armor ignored on a boss is now capped at 100%
-What your tooltip says is meaningless
-There is now some kind of damage variance active in the game, otherwise a 2 trink proc hit wouldn't be hitting for less than a 1 trink proc hit.

I have to go to work now, but I'll figure out the ArP "sweet spots" later and post that. If anyone else is able to calculate that, that would be great too.

IF someone could determine the following values for me:

-How much ArP to hit 100% with only Mjolnir's +Battle
-How much ArP to hit 100% with only Faerie + Mjolnir's + Battle
-How much ArP to hit 100% with Faerie + Sunder + Mjolnir's + Battle

I'd really appreciate it.

Battle Stance is 123 arp rating (if it is 10% exactly could be 123,16 but I didn't test if rounds or not)
Mace Spec is 185 (184.75) rating.
FF and Sunder works before you apply rating and stance so you need 100% to cap regardless of debuffs. Damage increase from sunder is around 8.5% at any arp value (slightly different at different levels but +-0.15%).

100% arp: 1231 rating
Mjolnir proc is 665 (53.99%) (confirm it?), GT is 612 (49.69%)

softcap for Mjolnir: 1231-665 = 566 (45.955% ArP)
softcap for GT: 1231-123-612 = 619 (50.258% ArP)

softcap for BS+Mjolnir: 1231-123-665 = 443 (35.968% ArP)
softcap for BS+GT: 1231-123-612 = 496 (40.272% ArP)

softcap for BS+Mjolnir+Mace: 1231-123-185-665 = 258 (20.948% ArP)
softcap for BS+GT+Mace: 1231-123-185-612 = 311 (25.251% ArP)

What I dont understand is, if that were true, why was I not able to reach 100% armor ignore without them up, even when my ArP got over 1800 in my tests?

Remember, the new cap has nothing to do with how much your tooltip can display, the cap is just that you cannot remove more than 100% armor from the target itself.

No, tbh you can't reach 0 armor without enough debuffs that bring it down to 7616. This is why you gain increases with sunder and FF.
Tooltip shows you are over 100% but seems to not account for the extra.

From your data it seems you can't go over 100% ArP otherwise your +2 with FF would have been equal to your tooltip.
Without any debuff on a boss target with 10643 armor you are only able to remove (10643+15232.5)/3 = 8625 armor at 100% arp leaving 2018 armor on the target.
To make 100% ArP = 100% armor removed you need to reduce the initial armor value.
Sunder, FF, Shattering and Serrated blades (2/3 to cap with sunder and FF) help bringing that 2018 armor left down to 315 and even less.

I was interested in a Hit+2 result since should have been the same as Hit+M.
Hit+GT is probably the same value as Hit+M, you just got that 1 dmg difference cause of roundings.

The point of capping ArP instead of armor is that you still get a dps increase from them regardless of the arp you have (IMHO).
Otherwise you would be able to stack up to 104.5% (sunder +ff) or 107% (only sunder) ArP to reach 0 armor.

I'll try to do some tests between 99% and 107% arp and check where it stops giving a damage increase, but I'm quite sure they did cap armor penetration intentionally.

Oh yeah the cap is definitely intentional... With double trinkets and stupid stacked ArP gear, I was getting 25-30k executes and mortal strikes as high as 13k, I knew it was too good to last. Of course ArP is still a good stat worth capping, we just have to figure out the sweet spot... How nerdy am I that I wish I could skip work to go whale on a target dummy all day?

THis ^^ I am sitting at 442 Yogg Mace and GT.. the majic number would be great to know. Of course, all things being consistant.

Mace Spec = 12.31 * 15
Battlestance = 12.31 * 10

Armorpenetrationcap of 100% is applied to your personal ArP rating (from Gear and Food) + Mace Spec + BattleStance.
The cap is not applied to sunder,FF and shattering throw. As these are debuffs on the mob.
So in your case you have a personal ArP rating of 442 + 123.1 + 184.65 = 749.75 (while in BattleStance using a mace)
The cap is 1231.

As such the GT proc is dimished to 1231 - 749.75 = 481.25 ArP.

You decide if it is still worth it. I'd recon this to be a borderline case.