Elitist Jerks Official 3.1 changes and discussion

03/27/09, 4:06 PM   #376
Fellwraith
It'll take a lot more than rage and muscle...

Mulack
Orc Warrior

No WoW Account
 Originally Posted by nfw Concussion blow fix will hurt us.
I'm pretty sure that's going to be more than offset by a global 5% damage increase from the defensive stance change and lower passive armor on targets before you sunder them (I'm talking vs the 3.0 build).

 03/27/09, 5:56 PM #377 Killme888 Piston Honda     Toadily Goblin Rogue   Black Dragonflight Overall sure, but the initial snap threat is pretty huge when you're just getting sunders up.
03/27/09, 8:16 PM   #378
NobleHelium
Von Kaiser

Night Elf Warrior

Uther
 Originally Posted by Jayde I know they are kinda responding to the 'too high Stamina, too low Strength' issue...but isn't it kinda self-defeating to get rid of other DPS stats as well? Seems a bit hit or miss in terms of making the pieces actually more attractive.
I'd say they're trying to increase the strength on the items along the logic that strength is the best stat and thus more of it is bound to be better. Except I'm not sure that logic works; they're reducing the other stats by more points than they're increasing strength by. It's basically a microcosm of the entire issue with plate - strength is better per point than the stats on leather, but there are more points available because there's another DPS stat that counterbalances the exponential cost on each individual stat.

Last edited by NobleHelium : 03/27/09 at 8:18 PM. Reason: Added quote because there were some posts inbetween that I didn't notice

 03/27/09, 8:38 PM #379 Rallik Piston Honda   Rallik Orc Warrior   Mal'Ganis I've been working at figuring out how arpen/debuffs stack today and have a theory for a formula: $\frac{A}{A+B(1-(x+y)+\frac{B}{A+B}xy)}$ where: A = the half armor value at 80, 15232.5 B = base boss armor, 10643(the value I found from testing) x = sum of arpen buffs(mace spec/battle stance/gear arpen) y = product of arpen debuffs(sunder/ff) (1-.95*.8) Currently arpen buffs are not working as specified, and are all .81 of what they should be. I.e. Battle stance = 8.1% reduction, mace spec = 12.15%, and 20% arpen from gear(per the tooltip) = 16.2%. The nice thing is that they do stack together additively. So, if you had Mace spec/Bstance/20% arpen, x would be .81*(.15+.1+.2) = .3645 Sunder/FF on the other hand stack together multiplicatively, so 24% reduction when both are applied. The debuffs and buffs together however do not interact as I'd expect at all. The buffs are summed together, but then do not stack multiplicatively or additively with the debuffs, but somewhere in between. After fiddling with the numbers for a long time and trying to discover a relationship, the ratio in between seems to be A/(A+B), the armor reduction for a boss at full armor oddly enough. To hopefully be a little more clear.. if you had 10% arpen from gear(ignore the .81 bug for now) and Sunder/FF up. expected armor reduction from arpen alone if fully multiplicative = .1 * (10643*(1-.24)) = 808.868 expected armor reduction from arpen alone if fully additive = .1*10643 = 1064.3 Actual armor reduction from arpen = 808.868 + (A/(A+B))(1064.3-808.868) ~= 959.24, which puts the final armor value at 10643*.76-959.24 ~= 7129.44, which becomes (15232.5/(7129.44+15232.5)) = ~= 68.11% damage, which is the answer you'll get if you plug all those numbers into the equation listed above. If anyone else's results don't check out with this equation, feel free to jump in. Last edited by Rallik : 03/28/09 at 1:51 PM.
 03/27/09, 8:59 PM #380 Shha King Hippo   Shha Night Elf Warrior   Scilla After looking on more then just few warrior items, it seems to me they reevaluated socket benefits. Sockets in PLATE gear (and plate only), now cost more - possibly to compensate for higher benefit of STR gems. Its true not only for warriors but any plate gear. Right now warrior set is "underbudgeted" by around 5ilvl using old "rules", same for other plate. If thats intended and not a bug to be fixed, then its another in series of "hidden nerfs" blizzard is smuggling here. That or some really weird logic - in order to make plate more appealing they boosted STR value - then few days later "compensated" the STR buff by nerfing the same plate items they want to be attractive.
 03/28/09, 4:30 AM #381 DemisedOne Glass Joe   OwnDemise Night Elf Warrior   Illidan After looking at both fury and arms it seems like arms is leading a bit when im testing on the dummies. I get the feeling fury(being able to scale better with raid buff then arms) will still be our top dps tree after the new patch. I would love to see if everyone’s results are what im seeing or not. With fury i seem to be getting about 2.2 to 2.3 k dps no buffs or sunders on target. With arms im getting 2.4 2.7 k dps no buffs or sunders on target. With the new talent switches and the new nerfs to tg i went to a all plate build and and was able to cap exp through my gear. On the ptr I’ve been moving my over power under my execute and ms in my rotations so i kind of of prioritize like this ms>execute>overpower>rend>heroic strike>slam Does anyone see any thing wrong with these numbers im hitting on the dummies and or see anything wrong with this rotation. Also does anyone see use of of using sudden death in pvp( is it just to much to spec or is it worth it). I’ve tried a few pvp specs and thought to my self that sudden death might be easier to pass on and make managing my rage safe for when im not taking dmg. Last edited by DemisedOne : 03/28/09 at 12:38 PM.
03/28/09, 6:26 AM   #382
Chardonnay
Von Kaiser

Blood Elf Priest

Arathor (EU)
 Originally Posted by nfw Improved Revenge: This talent will now increase the damage done by Revenge by the proper amount.
What is the current increase on live, if it's not the intented 20%?
I mean, will this fix buff or nerf our revenge damage?

03/28/09, 7:10 AM   #383
Jayde
Great Tiger

Night Elf Warrior

Silvermoon (EU)
 Originally Posted by Shha After looking on more then just few warrior items, it seems to me they reevaluated socket benefits. Sockets in PLATE gear (and plate only), now cost more - possibly to compensate for higher benefit of STR gems. Its true not only for warriors but any plate gear. Right now warrior set is "underbudgeted" by around 5ilvl using old "rules", same for other plate. If thats intended and not a bug to be fixed, then its another in series of "hidden nerfs" blizzard is smuggling here. That or some really weird logic - in order to make plate more appealing they boosted STR value - then few days later "compensated" the STR buff by nerfing the same plate items they want to be attractive.
If this is true, it seems as if it's undoing quite a lot of their work.

When considering such a large amount of the budget lost on:
a) Excess Stamina
b) Loss of efficiency with 1 less extra stat split
c) Overbudget gem slots

It seems resonable to assume that Leather/Mail will pull ahead again--if not now, some time in the nearish future.

03/28/09, 8:21 AM   #384
Morsexy
Banned

Human Warrior

Ysera
 Originally Posted by Shha After looking on more then just few warrior items, it seems to me they reevaluated socket benefits. Sockets in PLATE gear (and plate only), now cost more - possibly to compensate for higher benefit of STR gems. Its true not only for warriors but any plate gear. Right now warrior set is "underbudgeted" by around 5ilvl using old "rules", same for other plate. If thats intended and not a bug to be fixed, then its another in series of "hidden nerfs" blizzard is smuggling here. That or some really weird logic - in order to make plate more appealing they boosted STR value - then few days later "compensated" the STR buff by nerfing the same plate items they want to be attractive.
Oh Counterbalance, how I missed thee! It's been really tough to evaluate DPS on the PTR with lag, no glyphs, etc etc on and on. I will however say that generally everyone is having the same issues, and mostly my DPS is very lackluster in comparison to the highest DK, Mage, Rogue, Hunter, Warlock, Enh Shaman, Ret Paladin from attempt to attempt.

Given we are a very GCD locked class for half our cycle, I realize the PTR lag can overly affect our damage. That being said even with epic shirts on we're in a bad spot mathematically given our lack of important buffs.

Will edit tomorrow with our epic shirt Hodir attempts, I thought I had the link but no go.

03/28/09, 10:37 AM   #385
nfw
Don Flamenco

Area 52
 Originally Posted by Chardonnay What is the current increase on live, if it's not the intented 20%? I mean, will this fix buff or nerf our revenge damage?
I tested it, there does not seem to be much change at all, on PTR: I averaged 2017 per revenge against Pustulent Horror; on live 1944. Granted the sample size is small, but it's well within the 5% buff defensive stance received. Both tests were done by keeping 5 sunders up then do nothing but revenge.

So maybe the patchnote was talking about a bug on the PTR, but not live. Maybe someone who has Ulduar parses before and after this build can shed more light on this.

 03/28/09, 11:33 AM #386 Warstehgnome Von Kaiser   Warstehdruid Troll Druid   Skywall I also have done a bit of testing on the PTR with revenge on some elite 82 mobs. There seems to be no discernable difference other than about 7% total from my live to ptr revenge. I do believe this was a PTR fix. Going onward with this; I am very displeased with the few amount of changes brought to our class in 3.1. DKs still have more effective health than us. I was hoping for something more developed with both critical block, block rating/value(though GC gave us some indication this wouldn't make 3.1), along with damage shield. The fact they made recklessness no longer effect damage shield kills me! I loved popping recklessness> Defensive stance > shield block on aoe pulls and watch the aoe try to pull it off. I swear it was better than Death and Decay on my dk. For the moment, I am still concerned about critical block. Ulduar gear will not give us this satisfaction, but down the future, we can hopefully get more BV gear, which will give our critical block a much larger portion of damage reduction. Though, there lies the problem, as soon as we hit somewhere around 3k block value, crit block will be blocking 6k for 30% of our blocks. DKblock(UA3.1), Feralblock(savage defense?) do not scale this well, as well as holy shield. Holy shield shouldn't be a concern however as its up 100% of the time. If we begin to scale way ahead in passive block damage mitigation due to high block value builds, we will get it scaled back or reworked, which is too bad. That is exactly what I hope for the warrior class, to be blocking huge amounts of damage, and with shield block up, we could be in for some seroius mitigation(nevermind the t8 4pc). Long-time Tankspot.com member Wars
 03/28/09, 1:11 PM #387 Jayde Great Tiger     Kojiyama Night Elf Warrior   Silvermoon (EU) There is no reason to believe Critical Block will outscale anything. Critical Block is simply a 30% increase on average Block. Block is controlled by item budget. Block doesn't scale any better than AP for Druids nor will Block scale faster than incoming damage from enemies--as they are all balanced around a roughly linear increase in gear power. Critical Block will always be roughly as powerful as it's always been.
 03/28/09, 4:43 PM #388 Shha King Hippo   Shha Night Elf Warrior   Scilla At least looking at worldofraids non set items , it seems its not as bad - the new items there seem itemized properly. Still why is our t8 set nerfed (and ret too), is a mystery. Leads to a belief that maybe its a mistake not a planned design afterall.
 03/30/09, 12:10 AM #389 Stormzors Glass Joe   Stormbreaker Night Elf Warrior   Blackrock Hey guys first time poster. Just wondering what everyone's opinion on the new stats of Wall of Terror, is it worth the switch over from barricade of eternity? (Sorry if this has been discussed, I looked and couldn't find it, if you could point me in the right direction that would be great!) Item Comparison Tool - World of Warcraft
03/30/09, 9:28 AM   #390
DrChem
Glass Joe

Draenei Warrior

Silvermoon (EU)
 Originally Posted by Stormzors Hey guys first time poster. Just wondering what everyone's opinion on the new stats of Wall of Terror, is it worth the switch over from barricade of eternity? (Sorry if this has been discussed, I looked and couldn't find it, if you could point me in the right direction that would be great!) Item Comparison Tool - World of Warcraft
Simply put, Wall of Terror is for survivability and Barricade of Eternity is for threat. Use whichever you prefer for the situation.

 Elitist Jerks Official 3.1 changes and discussion