As i can agree with you, content is more accessible today, so more people run with BOH these days.
But how many have THE BIS-gear? On my server about 2 warriors on alliance side (including myself if I'm generous, because my gear isn't really that good)... the most warrior's are on a high distance to that.
The conclusion looks pretty clear... even with the proposed nerf, you're still better off with TG than with DW 1handers. ... and we'll still be hurting stuff pretty hard.
Assuming that I do about 6300 DPS in a perfect world at Patchwerk, and I'm #1 or #2 on DPS meters (the warlock tops me with his pet), after the nerf I will do ~5630 DPS placing #3-#7. We have always a feral with us and battleshout most times isn't longer our task since patch 3.0 / WotLK (however, I always buffed CS since 3.0). I really don't think the nerf is fitting well, assuming almost zero support the most times. I honestly hope they bring a sort of counterbalance to the nerf, so it doesn't hit some of us off the track.
To be more precise: this nerf is dedicated to the BIS-warriors (no one else really do's "too much damage"). It's principle like back in the Level 60 days when rage generation was halved because 1% of the warriors world wide always had a full rage bar with NX/AQ40 BIS-gear. The nerf was too strong and they had to revert it partially back to compensate. Therefore I don't think it will work this way. GC especially said "fury does too much damage", I don't think any other mechanic is therefore arranged to compensate for the 10%-nerf, and if, not for the full 10%, but only partially.
But you can have a best in slot warrior running in a 10 man (or a 25 man with a bad mix) that does a more "normal" level of dps based solely on the lack of buffs. Warriors scale really well in all cases, but the difference between dungeon blues and naxx25 purples is less than between full raid buffs and no buffs. I haven't run the numbers for rogues or other melee dps, but in the case of casters an ele shaman in an optimal raid does ~25% more dps than one soloing (providing their mana lasts). I do ~75% more. That's what's broken.
The TG nerf in particular is a total bandaid fix, and to be totally honest I don't see it staying in game, at least not at 10%. We probably have 2+ monthes of PTR ahead of us, and they said there is still alot of stuff coming for warriors/mages, so there is still probably alot of changes to come before we can really draw any conclusions.
Somewhat speculative argument, there are alot of changes to be released yet and I think we can all agree that rage mechanics make warriors hard to balance. But counter to your argument of a bandaid fix, TG as a talent offered more than a 20% damage increase with one point. A 10% nerf to damage from this talent brings it down to 10 to 15% which is a much more reasonable amount.
Originally Posted by Alator
To expand on this, I know it's not an exact science, but feeding some top level gear (full valorous and a few other pieces) into the spreadsheet with dual BoH, I get 5855 dps .... 90% of that is 5270 dps.
Then I replaced the MH with Calamity's and the off hand with Angry Dread ... and the numbers came back as 4377 dps. This included a ~300ap drop and a loss of about 4% crit.
Again, it's not an absolute indicator, but it's a good enough one to measure the 2 scenarios.
You may argue that 10% less white damage means 10% less rage ... but as already pointed out ... at these levels of dps ... rage should really be the last of your worries.
The conclusion looks pretty clear... even with the proposed nerf, you're still better off with TG than with DW 1handers. ... and we'll still be hurting stuff pretty hard.
Be careful with how you use the spreadsheet to determine 1h viablity. While you're probably right that 2h will still be significantly better an optimal build for 1handed weapons will not be the same as a build with TG. The numbers *should* be closer should those changes be made.
Part of the problem with these calculations of DW'ing 2 handers vs. 1 handers is that by dropping TG you get to pick up weapon specializations, which scale very well and there was talk that pre-buffed (hit penalty removed completely) TG would be outscaled by weapon spec's regardless.
Somewhat speculative argument, there are alot of changes to be released yet and I think we can all agree that rage mechanics make warriors hard to balance. But counter to your argument of a bandaid fix, TG as a talent offered more than a 20% damage increase with one point. A 10% nerf to damage from this talent brings it down to 10 to 15% which is a much more reasonable amount.
The main reason I don't see it staying in game is because of Unending Fury. Having a 5 point talent giving you a 10% Damage increase to the 3 yellow attacks you use, and then having the next talent give you -10% overall damage is pretty counterproductive. I think Blizzard wants to see a ~10% nerf, but simply isn't sure how they want to do it. So they just put this in for now and will change it later. Just my thoughts.
The main reason I don't see it staying in game is because of Unending Fury. Having a 5 point talent giving you a 10% Damage increase to the 3 yellow attacks you use, and then having the next talent give you -10% overall damage is pretty counterproductive. I think Blizzard wants to see a ~10% nerf, but simply isn't sure how they want to do it. So they just put this in for now and will change it later. Just my thoughts.
.. or they can totally rework Unending Fury. Yeah, but let's stop with speculations until more changes will be known.
I did some preliminary math on how SW is going to affect us in relation to the other 1 min CDs like Barkskin and IBF here. It looks like they are on the right track but I am not sure I agree with giving us yet another mandatory talent/glyph.
Wow, this must have been the most melodramatic whine I have seen. Ever. :P
EDIT: Any news on the ArP front?
Despite the cushion a 1 min cd can provide, I agree with it being a drag having to rely on a glyph, but until I know for sure which new glyphs are major/minor, I won't stress over it. The issue I have been seeing is everyone generally specs the same way to prot, 51 points gone, 20 to go. Even with 20 points, once you've gone to shockwave, besides deflection, there is basically nothing to further help your avoidance..I have been using a 12/8/51 build, goin for impale + cruelty to back it for the best threat gen I can muster. I may spec into the 4 min shield wall now before the patch to see if cutting that whole min makes a difference. But I will be damned to see SW go down another chunk...When it was a 30 min cooldown, YOU WERE A GOD!..for 15 seconds. With it being reduced to 60% in exchange for a 5 min cd, that was a fair tradeoff. With it scaling down to 40%, I have less reassurance it will save me in the o shit situation. I gear/spec to have consistent avoidance, having cooldowns from trinkets & SW & Last Stand to be there when I need them, not to rotate them as soon as it's off cooldown, creating that dependency for doing a job you're suppose to do without the cd's.
You cited the Brutallus fight as an example fo how dk's shorter cd's prevail over a warriors & paladin's. (this will sound very hypocritical to the above paragraph) When executed properly, popping nothing till the appropriate time, cycling cd's available could get the job done for us. I'll use Malygos as an example. For that fight I equip defender's code & Valor medal of the first war. Each with a 20 second duration can provide the extra avoidance needed for the ground phase of phase1. It won't be up for the entire ground phase, enough to the point where if I take an unlucky hit when either trinket is not running, a Last Stand/enraged regeneration or shield wall will get me thru. Then we go up to the vortex, come back down, and I am able to pop the other trinket. This trinket popping rotation could go on forever, but if you're maly run is stretching onto a 4th vortex, then something (spark placement, riding tank's threat, low dps) else is the issue. Anyways, main point, I have no problem switching gear up to get the job done, using shield block to aleviate a rough situation, shield wall for the o shit situation. I have a problem with sacrificing talent points (sacrificing threat), a glyph (especially with the new options coming out), and an o shit button to further my mitigation with a cooldown to compete with a DK. Let him have his quick cd's..I'll take my shield and try to balance it out.
O yea, Block mitigating magical damage...That would be awesome in PVE and seems Completely overpowered in prot pvp. Would it trigger Imp DStance and revenge?
Well as for somewhat quick math for TG vs 1handers:
1) Damage modifiers - 10% reduction, 6% increase (2h spec) - TG has 4% reduced dmg.
2) Weapon Spec - ASSUMING (and thats bold) that there will be dps 1h axes (if not... then we MIGHT be required to pvp for furious weapons O_o) Axe spec at current stats is worth around 6.7% damage. It also involves dropping unending fury - so -10% to your Slam/WW/BT.
Those 2 together put us at 10.7% increase on heroic/white damage, about same WW/BT/Slam damage (before Speed of weapon taken into account - see below), and to be calculated DW change.
Now WW/slam damage is more or less dropping by 27% due to weapon speed/diff normalization.
Deep wounds proccing from HS/Whites are same, specials proc around 27% lower dmg again, on more or less 25% of applications - so DW dmg is lowered by 8-10%.
So that mechanics together result in :
Deep Wounds damage lowered by 4-6%
WW/BS damage lowered by ~27%
White/Heroic damage around 15% higher
BT damage around 4% higher
Next layer to adapt is diff stats/weapon damage. With raid buffs the dps of 1hander combo seems to be in realm of 50 dps . Additionally you lose out on close to 200 str equivalent so another 30 dps. Thats about 10% total difference in damage.
So overall:
DW damage lowered ~15%
WW/BS damage lowered ~37%
White Heroic damage up by 5-6%
BT damage around 6% lower.
The last layer is rage generation
1hander heroic strike will be way way cheaper on rage - especially with changed heroic glyph it will make a big difference. I expect no less then 300-400dps based on this alone.
1hander setup is way more friendly to play - with rage spikes barely existant with current haste levels - you will probably do a double swing under GCD timer - its also very execute friendly - the dual 1hander build with axes should really go WAY up under 20%.
The reason for this math isnt to provide perfect estimate - its to show to people theorycrafting in this thread, how many different factors other then (I hit weaker with 1hander by xx% so thats the dps difference) are there to consider.
If you look at Landsoul spreadsheet with my BiS plate gear (too lazy to check with leather, but as they are 150dps apart i doubt it will be a huge deal), the difference between nerfed TG (you can add a 10% damage adjustment there btw), and 1hander fury is around 5700 for TG vs 5500 for 1handers. Add to it the fact that :
- Best in slot gear for TG will probably be a bit different for 1hander fury - hit will probably drop in effectiveness again due to higher HS usage (and lower cost), and faster recovery from misses.
- Landsoul spreadsheet doesnt adjust for execute phase - where TG is severly nerfed compared to spammable execute of 1h fury (with 1h axe spec and no damage reduction im sure 1h will outperform TG). Sure TG can switch to 1handers (assuming the damage nerf wont stay), but they will still be behind due to weapon spec.
- Heroic strike glyph with higher heroic strike usage and less rage problems of 1handers will probably add a bit as well.
My biggest problem with Titan's Grip penalties of any kind is they are not removed while a 1h+Shield is equipped. I don't see why a Fury Warrior off tank has to lose 10% of his TPS even while not wielding a 2h. Blizzard does a lot of nonsensical things, like adding a threat component to Tactical Mastery (which is obviously for off spec OTing) and then reducing TPS output via a deep Fury talent.
I'm sure the 10% nerf is a ruse though. You start off with 10% and once people cry out against such a harsh nerf it is changed to 5%, which they likely intended to implement from the begining.
Has anyone been able to get onto the PTR to confirm that the damage nerf affects warriors who are not dual wielding 2 handers at that moment? (For example, when you slap on a shield quickly to pick up a loose mob in an dungeon.)
If you look at Landsoul spreadsheet with my BiS plate gear (too lazy to check with leather, but as they are 150dps apart i doubt it will be a huge deal), the difference between nerfed TG (you can add a 10% damage adjustment there btw), and 1hander fury is around 5700 for TG vs 5500 for 1handers. Add to it the fact that :
- Best in slot gear for TG will probably be a bit different for 1hander fury - hit will probably drop in effectiveness again due to higher HS usage (and lower cost), and faster recovery from misses.
- Landsoul spreadsheet doesnt adjust for execute phase - where TG is severly nerfed compared to spammable execute of 1h fury (with 1h axe spec and no damage reduction im sure 1h will outperform TG). Sure TG can switch to 1handers (assuming the damage nerf wont stay), but they will still be behind due to weapon spec.
- Heroic strike glyph with higher heroic strike usage and less rage problems of 1handers will probably add a bit as well.
I assume this is using Betrayer of Humanity instead of a weapon that's properly itemized for us, right? I think the opportunity cost would be higher if BoH were actually itemized to use Str instead of AP/agi, etc. You have apples to apples because the 1h weapons are similarly itemized, but in the future, I'd expect most of our 2h weapons to have typical "plate" dps stats.
If you wield 1 2hand you have 100% damage dealt
If you wield 1h + shield you still deal 100% dmg
If you wield a 2h and a shield or another 1h or 2h you get 90% dmg dealt.
If you wield a 2h and another shield or weapon while in def stance you will be sitting at 81% dmg dealt.
Unfortunately as I suspected it works more or less like def stance. Deathwish brings your damage to 108% since it is nerfed by 10% aswell. On the other side def stance penalty is reduced by 10% since it also multiplies by 0.9.
If this works for every other talent aura even the 2h spec bonus should not be +6% but +5.4%
EDIT: on another note Deep Wounds ticks seems to suffer only 5% penalty. I am consistently getting 134 ticks with 2x2h vs 142 tick with 1x2h.
The offhand tick is dealing same 134 tick as it was a main hand (tried unarmed+2h in oh) so it seems to not count oh penalty.
EDIT: on another note Deep Wounds ticks seems to suffer only 5% penalty. I am consistently getting 134 ticks with 2x2h vs 142 tick with 1x2h.
The offhand tick is dealing same 134 tick as it was a main hand (tried unarmed+2h in oh) so it seems to not count oh penalty.
Could be to do with how they "fixed" the double dipping issue with deep wounds. 5% seems like a wierd value though, though it is half the value that we should loose...
I assume this is using Betrayer of Humanity instead of a weapon that's properly itemized for us, right? I think the opportunity cost would be higher if BoH were actually itemized to use Str instead of AP/agi, etc. You have apples to apples because the 1h weapons are similarly itemized, but in the future, I'd expect most of our 2h weapons to have typical "plate" dps stats.
You are aware that itemization towards AP/Agi is BETTER then itemization for STR? Thats the same reason why leather wins vs plate - Agi and AP arent as good as str, but having BOTH of them instead of STR, means you have one more stat on your weapon and thus more "points to spend on stats" so to say.
Compare Armageddon/Death's Bite (2 best weapons we have at ilvl 213) with Polearms (ignore the fact that you cant TG polearms - but those are the ilvl 213 weapons itemized for agi/ap) in spreadsheet if you want. Polearms win.
Originally Posted by hellord
EDIT: on another note Deep Wounds ticks seems to suffer only 5% penalty. I am consistently getting 134 ticks with 2x2h vs 142 tick with 1x2h.
The offhand tick is dealing same 134 tick as it was a main hand (tried unarmed+2h in oh) so it seems to not count oh penalty.
Maybe because your 2nd 2hander adds you enough AP etc to add those few dmg points per tick?
You are aware that itemization towards AP/Agi is BETTER then itemization for STR? Thats the same reason why leather wins vs plate - Agi and AP arent as good as str, but having BOTH of them instead of STR, means you have one more stat on your weapon and thus more "points to spend on stats" so to say.
Compare Armageddon/Death's Bite (2 best weapons we have at ilvl 213) with Polearms (ignore the fact that you cant TG polearms - but those are the ilvl 213 weapons itemized for agi/ap) in spreadsheet if you want. Polearms win.
Which speaks to the lack of stat synergy that several other classes/trees have more than anything. I'd like the think that in some fairlytaleland where Blizzard realizes how to properly balance this game they would try to avoid forcing players to make counter-intuitive gearing decisions such as picking up leather or agi/AP weapons rather than DPS plate and str/crit weapons.
Maybe because your 2nd 2hander adds you enough AP etc to add those few dmg points per tick?
No i didnt express myself properly.
single boh in MH: 142 tick
Boh in MH with white offhand (no stats): tick 134
no MH boh on OH: tick 134
so theorically in all 3 cases I had same stats cause for testing I used a vendor 2h with no stats.
I supposed deep wounds produced by oh are doing only 62.5% damage, while instead it seems full.
EDIT: further tests seems to give correct results on DW procced from oh. 97 ticks vs 64 ticks with the same weapon as oh. Anyway the problem is finding a dummy without debuffs
I'll try later to confirm.
Anyway I am trying to test arp but it's a pain cause of random crashes.
At first glance boss dummy has ~10170 armor but I don't have yet enough samples to get its proper armor.
It's around 40% dmg reduction.
I'll post more results on arp as soon as I have a better sample.
So, are there any truths to the rumors of the possible berserker stance buff, or any buff yet? So far, the changes seem to be rather bleak. Granted, we may have needed them to curb our scaling, but getting hit with nerfs instead of the supposed buffs seemed a bit shady.
A few things i'd like to say that i hope a Blizzard employee will see, these have already been said but i can't help repeating them (having played from MC to Sarth+3d)...
Giving Warriors a flat nerf based on their fully raid buffed DPS is going to leave us doing crap in 10mans where we will lack certain buffs such as Windfury, 10% ap and minor armor reduction buff. As someone stated you need to look at the ratio between class' self-buffed dps, 10man buffed dps and fully raid buffed dps, keeping in mind that certain buffs are not as easy to come by.
Hit and Expertise are too easy to cap and Crit is too high, too soon. I remember at the end of sunwell in almost the best gear available my crit was at 50% (give or take a few %), now at the very beginning of the next expansion my crit is in the same place, in my opinion crit should always be in the region of 20-30, maybe reaching 40% in endgame gear. The funny thing is that Flurry is soo good but since our crit is so high already we dont even want more.
Nerfing Rampage to 3% crit, Kings to 5% stats, 10% ap to 6-7% ap, Windfury to 10% haste will fix alot of problems.
Anyone who has played a warrior for a while knows what i mean when i say it fucking sucks to raid without the above buffs, we FEEL useless like we have ressurection sickness.
Nerfing Rampage to 3% crit, Kings to 5% stats, 10% ap to 6-7% ap, Windfury to 10% haste will fix alot of problems.
Anyone who has played a warrior for a while knows what i mean when i say it fucking sucks to raid without the above buffs, we FEEL useless like we have ressurection sickness.
Blizzard fixed problems with need of having massive amount of consumables, maybe they will see that we depend too much (and possibly scale too good) on raid buffs (WF, kings, etc). Frankly spaeking i don't believe that such potentially big overhaul is in scope of 3.1
A few things i'd like to say that i hope a Blizzard employee will see, these have already been said but i can't help repeating them (having played from MC to Sarth+3d)...
Giving Warriors a flat nerf based on their fully raid buffed DPS is going to leave us doing crap in 10mans where we will lack certain buffs such as Windfury, 10% ap and minor armor reduction buff. As someone stated you need to look at the ratio between class' self-buffed dps, 10man buffed dps and fully raid buffed dps, keeping in mind that certain buffs are not as easy to come by.
Hit and Expertise are too easy to cap and Crit is too high, too soon. I remember at the end of sunwell in almost the best gear available my crit was at 50% (give or take a few %), now at the very beginning of the next expansion my crit is in the same place, in my opinion crit should always be in the region of 20-30, maybe reaching 40% in endgame gear. The funny thing is that Flurry is soo good but since our crit is so high already we dont even want more.
Nerfing Rampage to 3% crit, Kings to 5% stats, 10% ap to 6-7% ap, Windfury to 10% haste will fix alot of problems.
Anyone who has played a warrior for a while knows what i mean when i say it fucking sucks to raid without the above buffs, we FEEL useless like we have ressurection sickness.
Neither Kings nor Rampage are a real problem. What's a really heavy impact is the 10% AP Buff (Hunters, BloodDKs) cause I haven't seen any warrior under 2,5k AP at lvl80 right now. Raidbuffed we will hang around 6-7k cause we can double up through all the buffs we get (Might, GotW, Strength of Earth and 10% AP Buff etc).
The other point is that Execute is very powerful compared to Hammer of Wrath or Kill Shot cause it has no CD. At encounters with very huge HP pools (like Thaddius) we can spam Execute like mad monkeys when they are under 20%, boosting our DPS due to a powerful instant. Adding a CD to Execute could be a solution to "nerf" warriors "overperformance" at e.g. Thaddius.
The other point is that Execute is very powerful compared to Hammer of Wrath or Kill Shot cause it has no CD. At encounters with very huge HP pools (like Thaddius) we can spam Execute like mad monkeys when they are under 20%, boosting our DPS due to a powerful instant. Adding a CD to Execute could be a solution to "nerf" warriors "overperformance" at e.g. Thaddius.
That's terrible, terrible advice.
The only fights where execute is even remotely competitive at a reasonable gear level are fights like Thaddius and Loatheb where you're almost guaranteed to have a full rage bar every GCD. Even then, you frequently do more DPS by putting Whirlwind and sometimes BT ahead of Execute.
Warriors are NOT doing too much damage from Execute. If anything, Execute needs to be buffed so during a Reckless/Deathwish/Execute phase I can spike aggro past the tank and get splattered like the old days. Doesn't feel like playing Fury without it.
Assuming that I do about 6300 DPS in a perfect world at Patchwerk, and I'm #1 or #2 on DPS meters (the warlock tops me with his pet), after the nerf I will do ~5630 DPS placing #3-#7. We have always a feral with us and battleshout most times isn't longer our task since patch 3.0 / WotLK (however, I always buffed CS since 3.0). I really don't think the nerf is fitting well, assuming almost zero support the most times. I honestly hope they bring a sort of counterbalance to the nerf, so it doesn't hit some of us off the track.
You can't say that you'll be #3-#7 on the DPS meters without taking all nerfs/buffs from other classes into account. If the only class change in 3.1 was the TG -10% nerf then your post would be accurate, obviously this isn't the case. Especially as many changes are still yet to see daylight.
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Original Post:
Originally Posted by Tamoa
DR mean that dodge, parry and block all diminish in effectiveness (over a long period of time) relative to armour and stamina, but in absolute terms they are still very important.
Neither Kings nor Rampage are a real problem. What's a really heavy impact is the 10% AP Buff (Hunters, BloodDKs) cause I haven't seen any warrior under 2,5k AP at lvl80 right now. Raidbuffed we will hang around 6-7k cause we can double up through all the buffs we get (Might, GotW, Strength of Earth and 10% AP Buff etc).
The other point is that Execute is very powerful compared to Hammer of Wrath or Kill Shot cause it has no CD. At encounters with very huge HP pools (like Thaddius) we can spam Execute like mad monkeys when they are under 20%, boosting our DPS due to a powerful instant. Adding a CD to Execute could be a solution to "nerf" warriors "overperformance" at e.g. Thaddius.
I see no reason to even bother using execute anymore. As it stands now is primarily a gimick for arms. I dont even use it that much in pvp! The damage vs. cost is extremely lack luster and mainintaing your regular rotation will yeild more dps in 99% of scenarios. When a boss hits 2% or lower I usually use executes then as quick damage will be a larger boost then trying to maintain your rotation in the short time before he keals over.
ps. On Thaddius my execute percentage is usually around 4-5% tops. Execute is NOT why we do so well on him.
I'm trying to get a mod going to measure total rage gains on the PTR, but I can definitely confirm that rage generation and managing rotations is much worse than on live.
I have discovered a little trick that will make testing TG builds simpler. What you must do is purchase dual-spec and set your first talent build to what you would usually go with when you spec TG, and your second talent build as everything that the first one is, minus TG. When you change talent sets or respec, the game does not force you to unequip your offhand two-hander, so you get to keep it for your secondary spec, sans the -10% penalty.
This should make it a little faster to compare weapons and play styles than switching back and forth between live and PTR servers.
since I use a BoH in my main hand. I have a Jawbone in my OH though, so perhaps if ArPen gets the buffs it's been rumored to, I may switch hands.
When Ulduar testing begins, I recommend all Fury Warriors to try this out with whichever weapon spec applies to you. There are bound to be some hard DPS races, and every little edge that you can get will help.
02/25/09, 11:53 AM
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