Elitist Jerks Rage Generation is changed

 05/26/09, 10:50 AM #1 hellord Absolute Arms     Hellorco Orc Warrior   Hellscream (EU) Rage Generation is changed I'm starting to have a look at rage since I'm getting very different results from the ones expected with wowwiki's formula. d = damage done c = 320.6 (constant @lvl 80) f = 3.5 for mh hit, 7 for mh crit (1.75-3.0 for offhand) s = weapon speed Rage = (7.5d/c + fs)/2 It's quite a bit many people are experiencing conflicting values and I think the difference is not so small. Thus any spreadsheet based on wowwiki's formula is overestimating the rage generation of both arms and fury warriors. I did few tests, still too few to even expect to derive a formula. Also I'm getting sometimes a sort of rage loss happening just after the rage gain. I don't know yet if this is due to addon and I'm making a small app to track precise data. I noticed this ungeared with a 3.2 6 dps weapon. I was gaining 4 rage then suddenly stepping to 3. I actually think this could be due to Xperl but I'll update the info once I have confirmed it. At first glance the formula on wowwiki states that you should only consider some factors that are damage dealt, weapon speed, the hand and wether it's a crit or not. Part of the rage you gain is then fs/2 that for a 3.2 speed mh hit is 4.8 and for a crit 9.6. This is what i got with a 3.2s weapon completely ungeared: Few normal hits for 130-137 -> rage gained 3-4 (no ER) Few normal hits for 139-143 -> rage gained 4 (with ER) I should have gained 5.6 rage at 0 damage and converting that ~140sh damage in another 1.5 rage. It should be at least 7 in both cases. This is what i got with a 3.4s weapon completely geared: Few normal hits for 1432-1437 -> rage gained 17 (no ER) Few normal hits for 1721-1767 -> rage gained 25 (no ER) fs/2 is in both cases 5.95 with wowwiki's formula, and in that case we gained 11 rage from 1435 damage and 19 from 1730 while we should expect 16 and 20 respectively. I also compared 2 hits close in damage with and w/o ER: no ER - damage 1619 - rage expected 24-25 - gained 19 w ER - damage 1670 - rage expected 30-31 - gained 24 I need a lot more data and I'm making a small addon to help me, but actually rage gain on live is half then expected when ungeared and about 1/4th less then expected at higher levels. I'm pretty sure the fixed part of the damage has been lowered and the rage gain from damage done diminished by around 30%. Actually it's rather annoying measuring rage gains and after a few tries I'm only relying on UNIT_RAGE event rather than rage bar. Anyway this event doesn't pass any other parameter then the unit so I have to measure rage with UnitPower() when the event is received. I don't know if this is the best way to do it and would appreciate any hint. I didn't test yet with oh since mh data are odd enough atm. I did test unarmed and ungeared but need more data. Atm I'm generating 2 rage (consistently) for 70 damage at 1.89s. I'm experiencing some discrepancies (very rarely btw) where I get 10-15% more rage on a hit than normal (3926 crit -> 55 rage, 3967 crit -> 68 rage for ex) but I can't track rage on combat log and I need the addon to see how often it happens if it happens at all. I'd appreciate any data and any speculation possibly backed up with data. ArP Whore
05/26/09, 11:35 AM   #2
Machinator
Don Flamenco

Troll Warrior

Aggramar
I started to do some testing a couple days ago to confirm that the formula has changed. But watching the rage bar for gains gets old fast and isnt very reliable, so I stopped since I couldn't find an addon.

 Also I'm getting sometimes a sort of rage loss happening just after the rage gain.
Is this something like you hit and gain rage but a split second later you go down 1 rage? I noticed that happening sometimes but dismissed it as a UI bug at the time.

Also I noticed that you gain rage on dodge/parry, between 3-10, possibly based on weapon speed?

Here is a couple points of data I took. I did test a bit with an OH, which had the same difference from expected as the MH did.

[Arcanite Ripper] 3.8 speed
Hit 1006, 14 rage, ~18.42 expected
Crit 2137, 31 rage, ~38.3 expected

[Dalaran Great Axe] 1.8 speed
Hit 405, 6 rage, ~7.89 expected
Crit 837, 12 rage, ~16.09 expected

"Information is ammunition."

 05/26/09, 11:39 AM #3 landsoul Myrmidon Champion     Landsoul Worgen Warrior   Alterac Mountains I confirm (after doing strange dummy tests): Wowwiki formula wrong You get full or partial rage on parry or dodge 1+ rage loss directly after hit With being naked and using smallest DW 2h I could find, I got sometimes 2-3 rage on main hand hit, wowwiki formula/kalgan post dictates I should get over 4 with that attack. >--Coaching Site--< Private coaching / Warrior Resource >--Stream--< Tues, Wed, 7 Eastern.
05/26/09, 12:29 PM   #4
Birdemani
Everybody knows that the bird is the word

Birdemani
Orc Warrior

No WoW Account
 Originally Posted by landsoul 1+ rage loss directly after hit
Could you explain this as both you and Hellord mentioned something similar. Are you seeing the rage gain and then it ticks off after your attack while in combat?

05/26/09, 12:39 PM   #5
Machinator
Don Flamenco

Troll Warrior

Aggramar
 Originally Posted by Birdemani Could you explain this as both you and Hellord mentioned something similar. Are you seeing the rage gain and then it ticks off after your attack while in combat?
You swing and hit the target, rage increases, lets say by 6, and then a split second later you only have 5 rage. While still in combat.

"Information is ammunition."

 05/26/09, 1:26 PM #6 Tutankhamon81 Glass Joe   Tutankhamon Night Elf Warrior   Garona It may be worth our time if this rage generation change can be explained in a clear manner on the damage dealing forums. It may be unintentially deflating our dps output a bit, afterall there has been no announced change to the rage generation formula.
 05/26/09, 5:48 PM #7 landsoul Myrmidon Champion     Landsoul Worgen Warrior   Alterac Mountains Blizzard changes things without telling us all the time, or sometimes has mechanics that don't fully work as explained. >--Coaching Site--< Private coaching / Warrior Resource >--Stream--< Tues, Wed, 7 Eastern.
 05/27/09, 4:29 AM #8 PantheraOnca Glass Joe   Aggramnannon Human Warrior   Daggerspine I don't know how related this is, but there have been times when I have 12-13 rage and attempt to shout (commanding or battle) and receive a "you do not have enough rage" error. I'll see my rage tick down one and try again and still the same thing. I don't use any unit frame mods and my latency rarely goes above 300 and usually sits at 170ms.
05/27/09, 6:24 AM   #9
Tyvi
Never, Mags. Never!

Human Death Knight

Turalyon (EU)
 Originally Posted by PantheraOnca I don't know how related this is, but there have been times when I have 12-13 rage and attempt to shout (commanding or battle) and receive a "you do not have enough rage" error. I'll see my rage tick down one and try again and still the same thing. I don't use any unit frame mods and my latency rarely goes above 300 and usually sits at 170ms.
That's been since around 3.0 I think, back when they changed how rage decayed (went from 2 rage every 2 seconds to 1 rage per second I believe). And yeah, there is absolutely no way you can do two shouts with 1 Bloodrage anymore like you could before this change because rage decays absurdly fast. It's a terrible change, IMO.

05/27/09, 7:20 AM   #10
landsoul
Myrmidon Champion

Worgen Warrior

Alterac Mountains
And we have a winner! All tests with all weapon combinations confirmed!

$\text{Rage}= \frac{3}{8}(fs+\frac{7.5d}{c})$
f=1.75,3.5,7 for offhand hit, offhand crit/main hand hit, main hand crit
s=base weapon speed
c=320.6
d=damage done

This is a nerf from what we thought it was:
$\text{Rage}= \frac{1}{2}(fs+\frac{7.5d}{c})$

data:
TG
ragedmglvlhandtypeexpected%acc
17 143760 3.5 1 17.0687461 0.995972399
18 1489 60 3.5 1 17.52492202 1.027108707
19 158860 3.5 1 18.39341079 1.032978615
36 2989 60 3.5 2 35.14634279 1.02428865
18 1529 60 3.5 1 17.87582658 1.006946444
16 1339 70 3.5 1 16.20902994 0.987104105
16 1324 70 3.5 1 16.07744074 0.995183267
17 1424 70 3.5 1 16.95470212 1.0026717
37 3145 70 3.5 2 36.51487056 1.013285805
14 1310 60 1.75 1 13.72337414 1.020157277
12 1094 60 1.75 1 11.82848955 1.014499776
24 2095 60 1.75 2 22.84112601 1.05073629
19 1628 60 3.5 1 18.74431535 1.01364065
48 4440 60 3.5 2 47.87540549 1.002602474

2H
ragedmglvlhandtypeexpected%acc
19 167660 3.5 1 19.16540081 0.991369822
21 184960 3.5 1 20.68306301 1.015323504
41 359060 3.5 2 40.41868372 1.014382365
20 180960 3.5 1 20.33215845 0.983663394
20 175160 3.5 1 19.82334685 1.008911369
9 798 60 3.5 1 11.46304585 0.785131641

1h
ragedmglvlhandtypeexpected%acc
8 689 60 3.5 1 8.144330942 0.982278355

Last edited by landsoul : 05/27/09 at 8:27 AM.

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05/27/09, 7:46 AM   #11
Starfox
King Hippo

Tauren Druid

Destromath (EU)
 Originally Posted by landsoul And we have a winner! All tests with all weapon combinations confirmed! $\text{Rage}= \frac{3}{8}(fs+\frac{7.5d}{c})$ f=1.75,3.5,7 for offhand hit, offhand crit/main hand hit, main hand crit s=base weapon speed c=320.6 d=damage done This is a nerf from what we thought it was: $\text{Rage}= \frac{1}{2}(fs+\frac{7.5d}{c})$
Base weaponspeed? Not modified by haste? Would be quite surprised if it really is base speed

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 05/27/09, 7:56 AM #12 amethyst Von Kaiser   Amethyst Human Warrior   Earthen Ring (EU) Using the actual (hasted) weapon speed would mean that stacking haste would cause your weapon blows to return less rage. Whilst the differences we're talking about seem fairly minor, it would seem against Blizz's design policy for the addition of a stat to cause a reduction in efficiency. As it is, using base weapon speed means that the first half of the equation is easily pre-calculated as it's not affected by haste values, which change all the time during combat based upon buffs/procs etc.
05/27/09, 8:22 AM   #13
Starfox
King Hippo

Tauren Druid

Destromath (EU)
 Originally Posted by amethyst Using the actual (hasted) weapon speed would mean that stacking haste would cause your weapon blows to return less rage. Whilst the differences we're talking about seem fairly minor, it would seem against Blizz's design policy for the addition of a stat to cause a reduction in efficiency. As it is, using base weapon speed means that the first half of the equation is easily pre-calculated as it's not affected by haste values, which change all the time during combat based upon buffs/procs etc.
But what does haste do? Perhaps it makes you hit more frequently?

Hello.
Light the fuse.
For all my homies.
Do not run, we are your friends.
SimulationCraft Druid Guy

 05/27/09, 8:23 AM #14 landsoul Myrmidon Champion     Landsoul Worgen Warrior   Alterac Mountains Haste increases your rage generation by increasing the frequency that these rage-hits are delivered. >--Coaching Site--< Private coaching / Warrior Resource >--Stream--< Tues, Wed, 7 Eastern.
 05/27/09, 8:42 AM #15 Speeder Piston Honda     Speeder Orc Warrior   Burning Legion (EU) It seems they nerfed it to offset gaining rage on parries, dodges, bubbles etc. peace MK

 Elitist Jerks Rage Generation is changed