Elitist Jerks Rage Generation is changed

 05/27/09, 8:51 AM #16 amethyst Von Kaiser   Amethyst Human Warrior   Earthen Ring (EU) Yup, more haste = more attacks = more rage is obvious (or I would hope so anyway). Starfox, you expressed surprise that the equation would use base weapon speed. My post was offering an explanation of why using base speed made more sense than using the actual (hasted) weapon speed. I'm not trying to argue with anyone here. My point was that I don't think it would make sense for more haste to make your initial hit net you less rage.
 05/27/09, 9:35 AM #17 hellord Absolute Arms     Hellorco Orc Warrior   Hellscream (EU) The formula seems quite accurate but I'm not sure it is complete. I do have very strange values when I'm hitting for very low values. I sampled some hits and crits at different levels. values from 1400sh to 1700sh normal and crits are in line or just different by 1 (so if it is rounded probabilistically we're in line). 3/8 vs 1/2 is a 25% nerf on rage generation than previously was (24% if you have endless rage). Some tests that don't match are: - unarmed ungeared with ER: hit (70 dmg) - rage gained 2, rage expected 3.87 - unarmed ungeared with ER: crit (140 dmg) - rage gained 4, rage expected 7.74 - 9dps 3.2s 2h axe ungeared no ER: hit (130-132 dmg) - rage gained 3, rage expected 5.35 - 9dps 3.2s 2h axe ungeared no ER: hit (135-137 dmg) - rage gained 4, rage expected 5.37 - 9dps 3.2s 2h axe ungeared no ER: crit (259-263 dmg) - rage gained 9, rage expected 10.68 - 9dps 3.2s 2h axe ungeared with ER: hit (139-143 dmg)- rage gained 4, rage expected 6.8 - 9dps 3.2s 2h axe ungeared with ER: crit (298-300 dmg)- rage gained 9, rage expected 13.7 Now consider that at 0 dmg done you should deal 3/8*fs so minimum rage gained is - for unarmed 1.89s --> hit: 2.48 - crit: 4.96 - for 3.2s --> hit: 4.2 - crit: 8.4 If ER boosted the whole rage generated, an unarmed crit should have produced at least 6 rage. Anyway if ER only boosts the damage part of the formula (7.5d/s) there are still some discrepancies and the values are never in the 1 range. At this point there are a few things that I would like to know, and these are: 1) How does ER boost rage? 2) Is there a damage treshold before which you don't produce any rage? ex: 3/8*(fs + 7.5*(d-X)/c) 3) Is rage rounded probabilistically? For the issue of losing 1 rage I'm inclined to think it is due to latency and rage decay. At least I'm seeing this problem occur very often on first hit on a dummy while I didn't notice it happening while in combat. I also noticed this loss AND rage decay don't trigger a UNIT_RAGE event every second. UNIT_RAGE is an event sent theorically every time your rage changes. If you use Bloodrage for ex, you get a UNIT_RAGE event every second and you gain 1 rage. When you exit combat and rage decay starts, even if your bar lose 1 rage point at a time you only get 1 UNIT_RAGE event every 2-3 points of decay. I guess the rage decay only triggers the event every nth seconds thus producing a sort on last tick as soon as you enter combat. For what I have understood once in combat the rage decay doesn't stop, but you start gaining rage at the same rate. If this is true this "rage gain" doesn't trigger at all a UNIT_RAGE event. ArP Whore
 05/27/09, 9:51 AM #18 landsoul Myrmidon Champion     Landsoul Worgen Warrior   Alterac Mountains Hellorco, can you get a table of damage of 2k+hits and crits please with ER and tell me your rage gains? I could probably find out where the 125% is plugged into and how! >--Coaching Site--< Private coaching / Warrior Resource >--Stream--< Tues, Wed, 7 Eastern.
05/27/09, 11:45 AM   #20
Buanna
Piston Honda

Troll Shaman

Hellscream
 Originally Posted by jathine As for the guy that was surprised by the fact the game doesn't use the hastened weapon speed in the rage equation, I can explain that as well. Recently while addressing Eclipse procs for moonkins GC stated there is a technical limit to the games ability to process cast times when haste procs fall off or are applied mid-cast. The game only applies or removes the haste on the next cast. I would assume the same applies to weapon swings since they are more or less a modified cast timer.
Weapon swing speed is readjusted mid-swing for parries, so there's already a check there.

It uses base speed in order to make haste relevant.

05/27/09, 11:57 AM   #21
jathine
Glass Joe

Troll Warrior

 Originally Posted by Buanna Weapon swing speed is readjusted mid-swing for parries, so there's already a check there. It uses base speed in order to make haste relevant.
Good point. I had forgot about parry haste. However, I still think it uses base weapon speed because it would be hard to determine how to grant rage based on haste buffs falling off mid swing. I am thinking along the lines of WF totem, Flurry, haste procs or on use from trinkets, the Ret Pally dying or something similar. How would Blizz grant rage in those situations? Would they simply just use the current weapon speed when the attack lands or do they "pro-rate" the rage granted based on how long you were at a weapon speed during the swing before it lands? I really think Blizz took the easy way out and just decided to use base weapon speed to avoid overly complex rage generation equations.

Edit: Haste would still be relevant even if the rage equation used instantaneous weapon speed for the rage equation. It would be a dps increase, but it wouldn't be a rage generation stat as well.

 05/27/09, 12:38 PM #22 hellord Absolute Arms     Hellorco Orc Warrior   Hellscream (EU) Here's 22 consecutive white swings with relative rage gain where I started from 0 and never went over cap (neither reaching it) XLS Zipped EDIT: there are a few hits that didn't bring me to 100 but gave much less rage. Since I'm actually measuring rage bar when I receive the SWING_DAMAGE event in the combat log, I'm pretty sure my mod is bugged or desynched so just ignore them for the moment. I'll try to gather more data to see if it happens. Last edited by hellord : 05/27/09 at 12:53 PM. ArP Whore
05/27/09, 6:37 PM   #23
Machinator
Don Flamenco

Troll Warrior

Aggramar
 Originally Posted by jathine Perhaps I can shed a little bit of light on why you guys are seeing the additional 1 rage every now and then. I did some experimenting with Haste and Rage about a year ago for Corb's rewrite of Meeks' Fury guide and while doing that I found the answer as to why you were seeing that extra point of rage fairly regularly. The game doesn't round the amount of rage in any fashion. What the game does is take the remainder and stores it up until there is enough rage to add an additional point of rage to an attack.
That would explain gaining extra 1 rage, but it doesn't really explain why we lose a point of rage. An issue related to rage decay like hellord mentioned seems much more likely.

 Originally Posted by Speeder It seems they nerfed it to offset gaining rage on parries, dodges, bubbles etc.
Which is just a straight up PVE DPS nerf, since none of those really affect them. And should have been in patch notes anyway.

Edit for extra fun from landsoul's thread on the wow forums that I didn't see mentioned:
 Originally Posted by Bornakk We are taking a look at this as we didn't make any intended changes recently to rage generation.

Last edited by Machinator : 05/27/09 at 6:58 PM.

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05/28/09, 12:33 AM   #24
jathine
Glass Joe

Troll Warrior

 Originally Posted by Machinator That would explain gaining extra 1 rage, but it doesn't really explain why we lose a point of rage. An issue related to rage decay like hellord mentioned seems much more likely.
If it is bugged as they are hinting at then it is entirely possible that the coding got changed so that it will subtract off the remainder instead of adding it once it accumulates to being greater than one.

05/28/09, 5:05 AM   #25
Starfox
King Hippo

Tauren Druid

Destromath (EU)
 Originally Posted by jathine If it is bugged as they are hinting at then it is entirely possible that the coding got changed so that it will subtract off the remainder instead of adding it once it accumulates to being greater than one.
Rage is at least tracked with one decimal, perhaps rounded after that.
Great Rage - Spell - World of Warcraft
Energize - Spell - World of Warcraft
There you can see that rage is at least tracked with 1/10th accuracy internally.

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 05/28/09, 12:50 PM #26 Herb Von Kaiser   Herb Tauren Druid   Emeriss (EU) Rage cost for dodged/parried/missed abilities* seems to be 20% of the orginal cost (e.g. a dodged Rend is 2 rage, a missed Mortal Strike is 6 rage) - essentially the same behavior as for "non-connecting" energy-based attacks (this was rather easily tested while skilling up 2H maces on tanked mobs, so all rage generation was from Bloodrage, for some minutes). *) "On next melee" abilities might behave differently
 05/29/09, 5:08 AM #27 Kampfschaf Von Kaiser   Kampfschaf Tauren Warrior   Un'Goro (EU) Possibly this is going to get reverted, as a Bornakk said that they did NOT make any intended changes to rage generation (answer to Landsouls posting). Source: MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Newly Discovered Rage Ghost Nerf Unveiled!
05/29/09, 6:55 AM   #28
Eregond
Glass Joe

Draenei Warrior

The Venture Co (EU)
 Originally Posted by Kampfschaf Possibly this is going to get reverted, as a Bornakk said that they did NOT make any intended changes to rage generation (answer to Landsouls posting). Source: MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Newly Discovered Rage Ghost Nerf Unveiled!
Seeing as warrior dps is in roughly a good spot compared to the developers target, only requiring a small adjustment, increasing our rage generation with 33% would mean significant other nerfs. It will be interesting to see when this change occurred but there's no real reason to revert it, particularly if the change goes far back (say 3.0). It would tie in to bears and protection warriors as well, and would mean an increase in overall ability costs, more heroic striking with lowered overall damage coefficients, or something more fancy which I doubt is on the table with so many affected. Arms warriors are already nearly swimming in rage at this raid tier, increasing generation wouldn't put it in a good spot.

Last edited by Eregond : 05/29/09 at 7:06 AM.

 05/29/09, 9:37 AM #29 hellord Absolute Arms     Hellorco Orc Warrior   Hellscream (EU) Ok, I have a few consideration to do after having reviewed rage generation. One and probably the most important is about miss and expertise. While hit is still as valuable as before expertise is now imho much less important. When you get dodges or parries you seem to generate the same rage as a normal hit. This devalues expertise contribution to rage generation by quite a lot. Considering this, an arms warrior on a white dodged or parried swing can benefit of a "free OP" while for a dodged/parried move replaces a ms/slam/exe with a 2.5s OP that is a slight loss of dps. The priority list would put OP first in the list so that you have more chances to not overwrite t4b on dodges. Also OP itself can't be dodged nor parried. My average damage consists of 20%sh white, 16%sh OP, 14%sh MS and DW, the rest is split among HS, Rend and WW. Now: - 16% of my damage isn't dependant on expertise at all. - DW damage will lose a % due to "dodged crits" (ie possible dodged special hits that could have been crits; this suppose a 2 dice roll and chances should be around dodge%*crit%. An arms has 5.5% cap baseline (considering SoA) so with 40% crit you should have around 2% chances to get this kind of occurrence. You anyway replace that swing or move with an OP (if it doesn't overwrite t4b) that will most likely proc a DW stack. - Rend dodged only lose around 1/12th due to delay and you waste 1s gcd (1.5s wasted, -0.5s bonus replacing next gcd with OP). I estimate this loss being around 2/3rd of a slam - (OP-slam), if you can avoid t4b overwrite. - 20% of my damage if dodged can give me a white - (OP-slam) loss. For every example consider OP-Slam as the benefit from both damage and gcd reduction. In the end there is a loss but I'm not gonna try to estimate the entity of hit, since it's more tied to the number of occurrance in a given time rather than a fixed % value. However the loss is very lower than for a fury warrior that has 0 base expertise from talents and 85+% of his damage is affected by it. Fury "just" devalues expertise for the loss of dps that can somehow be averaged (since I doubt fury warriors will stancedance to use OP) as (1-dodge)*damage max. I highly doubt it could be worth gemming for expertise as arms, and I think there is a breakpoint in fury aswell. At low gear STR could pull slightly ahead, at high gear you are already with Arp>STR and it gives better returns per point. What you would lose is the reliability of interrupts, that in some fight is a must, but it's situational. ArP Whore
05/29/09, 1:36 PM   #30
ZombieRitual
Glass Joe

Night Elf Warrior

Ner'zhul
Since I don't think the latest blue response on this has been posted/linked to here:
 We investigated this issue and found it was not true – the rage generation formula has not changed anytime recently. So we looked into it further to figure out why this was being brought up and here are some of the problems we came across: * In the formulas people are using, there is a constant value which is labeled as ‘c’. At some point in the past, someone calculated a formula for determining c based on their level and that formula is not correct past level 70 as this value needs retuning from time to time like when a new expansion comes out. The value listed for c is 320.6 when it is actually 453.3. * We modified the system for displaying power bars in Wrath of the Lich King to have the client display its best guess of how much power they have, which is very deterministic for mana or energy, but not so much for rage. This most likely results in the displayed rage being off slightly at times, making the data collection more difficult. The client displays its best guess and the server validates the power usage against the value it knows they actually have - the two can be out of synch occasionally which throws the data off. * Some of the testing was done with ungeared characters hitting for very small amounts. There is a component to the calculation we haven’t previously mentioned that will make the rage gained from those attacks sometimes not match the formula. Basically, the normal formula is Rage = (7.5d/c+f*s)/2. However, that result can never be larger than (7.5d/c)*2. This essentially means that very low damage attacks have a limit on how much they can be averaged up by the f*s component of the equation. To try and clarify things for the number crunchers, conceptually, here is the formula for rage generation: * 1) Determine rage based on damage done divided by a level constant (7.5*d/c) * 2) Determine how much rage would be 3.5 rage per second when factoring in the hit made and the weapon’s speed (f*s) * 3) Average the two of them together (the divided by 2 part).
World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Newly Discovered Rage Ghost Nerf Unveiled!

Seems our formula was just off. I do find it annoying however that the client doesn't always show our true rage.

Last edited by ZombieRitual : 05/29/09 at 1:36 PM. Reason: re-worded

 Elitist Jerks Rage Generation is changed