[Fury/Arms] Rawr.DPSWarr Thread - Page 3

BWarner · 10/05/09, 7:23 AM

Originally Posted by BarbaMsk

Pre3.2 patch i was an arms/fury, and after Execute's nerf i dropped arms for tank, 'cause my arms-dps becomes 3/4 of my-fury. But today, i switch my gear from fury-file in Rawr in arms-talents, and Rawr saya: "even with str-gems, your arms-dps is slightly better then fury". How it can be? ^)

Link to armory

It's helpful to take a line from Landsoul's sheet on this one: "Please don't use the spreadsheet to determine if fury is better than arms or not. It's just a metric to determine what gear to acquire to get the most efficient output. You should try both specs if you want to see which is better for what fight." Same goes for Rawr. It depends on the fight. It depends on the buffs available, and the buffs you need to provide. The DPS output from a calculation is merely a metric, a means of comparison within the closed system (that system being your specific character setup). Don't try to over-emphasize the values you get between two totally different specs here.

Some fights lend themselves to Arms. Some fights lends themselves to Fury. If there's enough of a performance difference for you to switch for a certain fight or set of fights, go for it! For everything else - play what you have the most fun with. Really. They're close enough where you can do that for most of the content, and not be hurting anybody by doing so.

Let me say that again:

For the overwhelming majority of the current
and recent raiding content, you can
play whichever spec you enjoy more,
and still be pulling your fair share in the raid.

Really.

BarbaMsk · 10/05/09, 7:49 AM

Thanks for reply, but it does not really needed to write so much. I know about fight for Arms and fight for Fury, I've just wondering, is it _average_ damage on 232-245 gear for Arms close to Fury enough to get arms spec back and can i trust in Rawr dps valuation (round to 0.5k) or not. And answer "try what you like more" not exactly that i want, because i cant simply change raid spec and go into raid

Jothay · 10/05/09, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by BarbaMsk

Thanks for reply, but it does not really needed to write so much. I know about fight for Arms and fight for Fury, I've just wondering, is it _average_ damage on 232-245 gear for Arms close to Fury enough to get arms spec back and can i trust in Rawr dps valuation (round to 0.5k) or not. And answer "try what you like more" not exactly that i want, because i cant simply change raid spec and go into raid)

If you can't jump into a Raid like that for an evening you need a better guild :P

What you can do instead is test yourself against the Heroic Training Dummy before your raid

Coeus · 10/05/09, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Jothay

What you can do instead is test yourself against the Heroic Training Dummy before your raid

Unless you have your whole raid working on the dummy with you, that won't be an accurate comparison, either. You'll be missing vital buffs and debuffs that affect the specs quite differently. You can't look at dummy DPS and say that one spec is better for you with that as your only data point.

Jothay · 10/05/09, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Coeus

Unless you have your whole raid working on the dummy with you, that won't be an accurate comparison, either. You'll be missing vital buffs and debuffs that affect the specs quite differently. You can't look at dummy DPS and say that one spec is better for you with that as your only data point.

Which is why you should do it in a raid but if his guild won't let him, he doesn't have much of a choice.

• ebs2002 · 10/05/09, 1:38 PM

No, Arms and Fury DPS are not meant to be compared to one another. They use different methods to determine DPS, and are only meant to compare against the same spec.

In a perfect world, we'd like to make them equal. They do share a lot of code with one another (all the helper functions are the same). But the way we model the rotation is going to be intrinsically different and imperfect with real world situations. We do our best to make it a close approximation, but in the end they are just approximations.

Just for some examples why the DPS numbers don't carry over:
- Fury is using a rotation where you never delay your Whirlwind or Bloodthirst (giving you a lower DPS than you would get if you sometimes delay BT for a short time to squeeze in that Slam that's about to fall off)
- Arms uses a priority list that slightly under-estimates slam usage because it assumes that you're able to always Execute on Sudden Death, even if it delays another ability (giving you probably a higher DPS than you would get in the real world).

Both models rely on being able to play the spec perfectly. Nobody's perfect. Even being imperfect at Arms, Rawr's representation of Arms gearing should be pretty close for you. But you may just be "closer to perfect" as Fury, so you perform better at Fury.

In the end, the point of Rawr is to determine how to best gear yourself for each spec. It is not meant to help you determine if you will do more DPS as Fury or as Arms. Just like using Landsoul's sheet for Fury and Rawr for Arms -- "Landsoul's sheet says I do 8k DPS as Fury, but Rawr says I do 8100 as Arms" -- that's a silly reason to change specs, and so is "Rawr's Arms says I do X and Rawr's Fury says I do Y". They just don't carry over.

Vulgrym · 10/05/09, 4:41 PM

Originally Posted by BWarner

It's helpful to take a line from Landsoul's sheet on this one: "Please don't use the spreadsheet to determine if fury is better than arms or not. It's just a metric to determine what gear to acquire to get the most efficient output. You should try both specs if you want to see which is better for what fight." Same goes for Rawr. It depends on the fight. It depends on the buffs available, and the buffs you need to provide. The DPS output from a calculation is merely a metric, a means of comparison within the closed system (that system being your specific character setup). Don't try to over-emphasize the values you get between two totally different specs here.

For what it's worth, I've had decent success modeling performance in Rawr that turns out to be pretty close in raid situations, provided I make it as apples-to-apples as possbile (mostly Arms). No, you can't apply this to every fight and yes, it means extensive fiddling with Fight Info, Ability Maintenance and Buffs, but I've found it a useful predictor.

Originally Posted by BWarner

Some fights lend themselves to Arms. Some fights lends themselves to Fury. If there's enough of a performance difference for you to switch for a certain fight or set of fights, go for it! For everything else - play what you have the most fun with. Really. They're close enough where you can do that for most of the content, and not be hurting anybody by doing so.

I generally agree with the "play what you want" approach (provided buff coverage is a non issue), but looking at aggregated parses on sites such as WMO, there's a pretty big discrepancy in terms of which spec does better, pretty much on all fights. This probably comes down things that are difficult to model, such as 'burn phase' flexibility via Deathwish, Bloodlust/Heroism scaling between the specs, consistent AoE damage due to adds etc. If there's a fight that currently lends itself to Arms better than Fury in this raid tier or even Ulduar, please point it out (Faction Champs?).

BWarner · 10/05/09, 6:30 PM

Originally Posted by Vulgrym

For what it's worth, I've had decent success modeling performance in Rawr that turns out to be pretty close in raid situations, provided I make it as apples-to-apples as possbile (mostly Arms). No, you can't apply this to every fight and yes, it means extensive fiddling with Fight Info, Ability Maintenance and Buffs, but I've found it a useful predictor.

I generally agree with the "play what you want" approach (provided buff coverage is a non issue), but looking at aggregated parses on sites such as WMO, there's a pretty big discrepancy in terms of which spec does better, pretty much on all fights. This probably comes down things that are difficult to model, such as 'burn phase' flexibility via Deathwish, Bloodlust/Heroism scaling between the specs, consistent AoE damage due to adds etc. If there's a fight that currently lends itself to Arms better than Fury in this raid tier or even Ulduar, please point it out (Faction Champs?).

I play Arms on Faction Beasts. I play Arms on Jaraxxus most of the time. I play Arms on Faction Champs. I play Arms most of the time on Twins. I play Fury on Anub, absolutely.

Could I get more number performance by making sure that I switch to the absolutely most optimal spec for any given fight? Sure. But, right now, I just don't enjoy Fury as much as Arms. So, I stay Fury for most of our raiding content. And, in my mind and that of my guild's, that's okay. The reason being that I am STILL CONTRIBUTING as a "sub-optimal spec, and not being "carried" by any means. I'm okay with playing a slightly suboptimal spec on the content we have on farm, because I know that I will enjoy those 3-12 minutes more as one spec than I would using the "best" spec.

There's some content that just begs to be accommodated with a certain spec, though. Arms for Vezax. Because I know it's a miserably boring (and sometimes painful resource-wise) fight to play as Fury. And, when the content being approached is progression content, it is only logical to play the spec that suits the fight much better (Fury on Anub, at the moment).

For most of the content, though? Don't get so hung up on it. Unless the only/primary enjoyment you derive is putting out the absolute "best" numbers possible in any given fight (not to insult those who enjoy shooting for "scoreboards"), Arms and Fury are close enough in the current gear/encounters that it's possible to perform well in either spec on any given fight. They're even close enough on the whole, or on a single-target damage fight that this is even true in the "macro" sense - the aggregate of the current content.

Regardless, more to the point at hand (as all of that is rather tangential from the main topic here) - ideally, accounting for all variables accurately (rotation efficiency, maintained abilities, adds, movement, mechanics, etc.), and using similar enough approaches to the DPS metric, the results would have enough parity to be able to compare the two metrics against each other. But, because of the reasons Ebs mentioned above, it's just not workable to do so.

BarbaMsk · 10/06/09, 3:26 AM

Thanks to all of you, folks

This is not another holywar thread, its a Rawr thread, and The Question was "Can i trust in Rawr dps valuation, when Rawr shows equal dps in both Arms and Fury". I don't need an numbers, only logicat True/False

/And yes, i'm think i'm ask GM about one-two full raid-day for trying Arms again, but this is different story for different thread.

• ebs2002 · 10/06/09, 5:53 PM

In that case, if you want a short answer, it is:

No, a higher number in Arms does not mean it will do more damage than a lower number in Fury. Arms numbers can only be compared to other Arms numbers, and Fury numbers can only be compared to other Fury numbers. This is true for both Rawr and Landsoul's spreadsheet.

• ebs2002 · 10/06/09, 11:43 PM

Rawr 2.2.20 has been released, and most of the problems discussed in this thread have been repaired.

Check it out!

Vulgrym · 10/07/09, 4:22 AM

Originally Posted by ebs2002

Rawr 2.2.20 has been released, and most of the problems discussed in this thread have been repaired.

Check it out!

DMC: Greatness seems to have dropped from the gear options in the Comparisons pane. I can find the item via Tools > Edit Items and then filtering, but I don't see what might be preventing it from displaying as an option (do not have one already equipped). I can give more specific info regarding my loaded character if needed and if this isn't an issue for anybody else.

EDIT: same deal for Dexterous Brightstone ring; maybe a default setting changed for purchased items?

Originally Posted by BWarner

For most of the content, though? Don't get so hung up on it. Unless the only/primary enjoyment you derive is putting out the absolute "best" numbers possible in any given fight (not to insult those who enjoy shooting for "scoreboards"), Arms and Fury are close enough in the current gear/encounters that it's possible to perform well in either spec on any given fight. They're even close enough on the whole, or on a single-target damage fight that this is even true in the "macro" sense - the aggregate of the current content.

Regardless, more to the point at hand (as all of that is rather tangential from the main topic here) - ideally, accounting for all variables accurately (rotation efficiency, maintained abilities, adds, movement, mechanics, etc.), and using similar enough approaches to the DPS metric, the results would have enough parity to be able to compare the two metrics against each other. But, because of the reasons Ebs mentioned above, it's just not workable to do so.

Fair enough, I acknowledge the variables are extremely difficult to account for. Bridging the gap between predicted DPS and the actual parses we see for the two specs would be nice (especially considering how they diverge in TotC; it IS significant, even on something like Beasts), but I'll gladly take a slick evaluative tool for same spec analysis. FWIW, the interest was driven more from a raid stacking perspective than concern over personal performance; I'll play whatever.

• ebs2002 · 10/07/09, 11:31 AM

DMC: Greatness seems to have dropped from the gear options in the Comparisons pane. I can find the item via Tools > Edit Items and then filtering, but I don't see what might be preventing it from displaying as an option (do not have one already equipped). I can give more specific info regarding my loaded character if needed and if this isn't an issue for anybody else.

Check your filters. I seem to recall people saying that some of the default filters were turned off erroneously (we have added a lot of filters in this most recent release). I typically set "All" and uncheck "Options" to see EVERYTHING, (and also Options > Refine types of items listed > check Mail and Leather). DMC:G should be under "Quests" and the ring should be under "Triumph Badges" in the Special Currency filter.

Jothay · 10/08/09, 4:40 PM

For those of you that were concerned with the 2.2.20 release being too slow, some of that was corrected for 2.2.21. On a bigger scale though, Astrylian has started to perform large samples of performance tests across the board and the devs as a team are discussing options for optimizing Rawr to work faster in all of it's models/aspects. DPSWarr has seen MAJOR improvements in the last 48 hours thanks to the ideas spun from that internal thread.

Ran Newman · 10/08/09, 10:48 PM

The weapons section on the arms sheet (v.2.2.21) seems very weird. For example, it claims Justicebringer (normal version) will be only 80 DPS increase over my Aesir's Edge while lnadsoul spreadsheet claims it to be 500. It even claims heroic Reckoning to be better then Justicebringer, giving 87 DPS (which still seems very low dps increasment over my current weapon). And yes, i made sure to fill 5/5 in all the weapon specs.

EDIT: I made a big mistake, the very low value of Justicebriner was due the wrong gemming. However, even with right gemming it only seems to be 230 dps increase, way lower then in landsoul spreadsheet.

Jothay · 10/09/09, 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by Ran Newman

The weapons section on the arms sheet (v.2.2.21) seems very weird. For example, it claims Justicebringer (normal version) will be only 80 DPS increase over my Aesir's Edge while lnadsoul spreadsheet claims it to be 500. It even claims heroic Reckoning to be better then Justicebringer, giving 87 DPS (which still seems very low dps increasment over my current weapon). And yes, i made sure to fill 5/5 in all the weapon specs.

EDIT: I made a big mistake, the very low value of Justicebriner was due the wrong gemming. However, even with right gemming it only seems to be 230 dps increase, way lower then in landsoul spreadsheet.

do you have ALL of the settings matching what Landsoul's sheet assumes?
1. Set it to Patchwerk 10 man
2. Set all the maintenances to Damage Dealers for Arms only, no exec spam, only HS and Bloodrage active beyond that.

Ran Newman · 10/09/09, 10:24 AM

I have just tried that, the dps increasment went up to 330. This number seems more reasonable since Rawr give me much lower numbers overall (it claims i should be doing 6900 dps with Justicebringer, while on landsoul spreadsheet it claimes i should be doing 6880 wtih Aesir's Edge), Sorry for posting so fast without checking all the options first. It might be importent to add that on both sheets i set latency to 300 ms (i also changed reaction time to 210 ms, to match landsoul spreadshet).

Jothay · 10/09/09, 2:05 PM

Originally Posted by Ran Newman

I have just tried that, the dps increasment went up to 330. This number seems more reasonable since Rawr give me much lower numbers overall (it claims i should be doing 6900 dps with Justicebringer, while on landsoul spreadsheet it claimes i should be doing 6880 wtih Aesir's Edge), Sorry for posting so fast without checking all the options first. It might be importent to add that on both sheets i set latency to 300 ms (i also changed reaction time to 210 ms, to match landsoul spreadshet).

I think the remainder of the difference is due to how Rawr handles Special Effects vs Landsoul's sheet.

• ebs2002 · 10/09/09, 7:41 PM

If you want to be closer to Landsoul's SpecialEffect calcs, go to the Misc Options page and uncheck "Use Duration for Special Effects". Since we are using a fight duration, one Bloodlust on a 5min fight is worth more than one Bloodlust on a 10min fight.

I am still skeptical that a 200dps difference between sheets can be attributed to special effects, although it could be. What is the percentage increase that you see when upgrading the weapon in Rawr and in Landsoul's sheet? Also, can you go to rawr.codeplex.com and create a new issue on the Issue Tracker? Be sure to attach your character XML file, and upload Landsoul's sheet that you are comparing to so we are both looking at the same exact thing.

Excession · 10/13/09, 8:38 PM

Can you check the expertise calculations for Fury in 2.2.22 please? It seems that even if I'm well below the cap expertise is being rated about the same as Hit Rating (past yellow cap) rather than at the top like I would expect.

Edit: Checked 2.2.21 and it is giving expertise the value I would expect.

Charmath · 10/14/09, 3:17 AM

Originally Posted by Excession

Can you check the expertise calculations for Fury in 2.2.22 please? It seems that even if I'm well below the cap expertise is being rated about the same as Hit Rating (past yellow cap) rather than at the top like I would expect.

Edit: Checked 2.2.21 and it is giving expertise the value I would expect.

Having the same issue. Expertise seems to be valued very low in any gear setup I've tried below the cap.

Jothay · 10/14/09, 3:53 PM

We have fixed this for 2.2.23

Jothay · 10/15/09, 12:33 PM

2.2.23 has been released with even more Performance Improvements as well as bugfixes.

• ebs2002 · 10/19/09, 11:20 AM

Yes, we were doing optimizations to calculations, and I missed a ( ) when converting foo = a; foo += b; foo *= c; to foo = (a + b) * c in the expertise calculations. Honestly, I wasn't ready for 2.2.22 to be released, I was in training and didn't expect it to come so quickly

Anyway, between 2.2.23 and the upcoming 2.2.24, there should be large performance gains for anybody who was using optimizations or upgrade lists.

And BrWarner pointed out the logs showing Unbridled Wrath procing on heroic strikes / cleaves as well as white attacks, so that's coming up soon as well.

Jothay · 10/19/09, 10:49 PM

Coming in 2.2.24 we have some new work for Arms that deals with Rage Starvation from having low stats (either from low gear levels or not enough buffs). The RS will result in abilities being lost as you don't have enough rage to fire them off in the rotation. Users in those situations will see very abnormally large values for STR/Crit until you are fully maintaining your rotation, after that normal values will resume.