Tanking enchant discussion - Page 3

Danin · 05/18/10, 8:56 AM

Originally Posted by cbgoding

0.5% is honestly a high estimate for how much additional damage reduction 240 armor would give, especially for warriors that stack armor. For example, if I have full raidbuffs, I sit at 40108 armor (before armor potion or ring proc), and thus 70.68% damage reduction from a level 83 attacker. 240 additional armor brings the dr to 70.8%, for an increase of 0.12%.

So using that 500,000 melee damage you cited, the damage reduced by the armor provided by mongoose is 600, assuming my level of armor. The argument for mongoose's avoidance and threat remains valid, but from an EH standpoint it's rather negligible.

EDIT: .5% of 500,000 is 2500. maybe you meant 5,000,000?

RELATIVE increase is armor mitigation. Increasing your TOTAL armor mitigation from 70.68% to 70.8% is a RELATIVE increase in current mitigation of 0.12 / 29.32 = 0.0041 = 0.41%. (i.e. you take 0.41% less damage from melee attacks with Mongoose up than you do without).

Skyhawk · 05/18/10, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by Mokkhyr

@Skyhawk:

Firstly, LK Heroic is a 15:00 to 15:30 encounter as the Beserk timer ist 15 minutes and you can zerg him a bit after he berserks. The logs show it as 18 to 19 minutes because of the roleplay part after Fury of Frostmourne is cast.

Yes I did forget about the roleplay part of the encounter and that the WoL parse includes an extra couple of minutes that don't really count. Either way Blood Draining healed for less than 1% of the tank's total damage intake over the course of the fight...

Originally Posted by Mokkhyr

Phase 1 (tanking all the adds): heavy physical damage
First transition phase (tanking Raging Spirits): medium spell and physical damage
Phase 2 (tanking the remaining Raging Spirit, afterwards tanking the Valkyrs' Life Siphon): at first medium spell and physical damage, later heavy (but steady) spell damage
Second transition phase (tanking two Raging Spirits at the same time): heavy spell and physical damage
Phase 3 (tanking the remaining Raging Spirits, afterwards crushing the Vile Spirits): heavy spell and physical damage, afterwards heavy (burst) spell damage

The bolded parts show where the Mongoose proc will help to mitigate some damage, and since there is a great deal of spell damage in most phases this is where Blood Draining has an advantage in my opinion. However, going back to the actual logs shows that it still doesn't proc enough to make a real difference over the course of the entire fight. I'd need to look through the whole thing to see if it really prevented a tank death or not, but again 15543 heals over a 15 minute fight isn't anything special.

Originally Posted by Mokkhyr

As a conclusion, you should be careful at judging enchants by just watching at the numbers. 17k heal in a 15 minute encounter might seem low at first, but 17k heal at the right moments can decide the outcome of the fight. In addition to that, it would of course be much more than 17k if LK was a 15 minute tank and spank encounter.

Not saying that Blood Draining is great, but from my point of view it's the best for tanking the current heroic content.

Well I guess my point wasn't to say that Mongoose > Blood Draining, but more that Blood Draining isn't as wonderful as everyone thinks it is for this fight. Because the proc is dependent on your current HP%, and making the assumption that healers are doing their job, it actually is rare that the proc will even happen at all (which the logs show). If this is the case, then it's even more rare that when it does proc the heal will save your life or save an attempt. Another way to think of it is by looking at the Heroic Corpse Tongue Coin. Ignoring the passive avoidance part, it has the same proc requirements but is generally regarded as a less than optimal trinket because it provides a rarely-occurring proc, even though the proc itself is pretty damn good (although it may not save you the way Blood Draining could). Also, in contrast to Blood Draining, Mongoose provides some threat and avoidance benefits with a very good uptime percentage.

janaka · 05/19/10, 8:44 AM

Originally Posted by Skyhawk

Another way to think of it is by looking at the Heroic Corpse Tongue Coin. Ignoring the passive avoidance part, it has the same proc requirements but is generally regarded as a less than optimal trinket because it provides a rarely-occurring proc, (...)

No. The reason the coin is a bad trinket is the dodge rating. If it had 258 Stamina (which is the same item budget) instead, it would arguably be one of the best trinkets in the game.
The proc is mediocore, because 6.5k armor is only roughly 3% damage reduction at ICC gear levels (which can be really nice in certain situations, but is in typical burst scenarios less valuable than a 5k-6.4k health buffer from other trinkets' use effects or even than a 2k heal). It's not because of the 35%-mechanic.

Skyhawk · 05/19/10, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by janaka

Originally Posted by skyhawk

Another way to think of it is by looking at the Heroic Corpse Tongue Coin. Ignoring the passive avoidance part, it has the same proc requirements but is generally regarded as a less than optimal trinket because it provides a rarely-occurring proc, (...)

No. The reason the coin is a bad trinket is the dodge rating. If it had 258 Stamina (which is the same item budget) instead, it would arguably be one of the best trinkets in the game.
The proc is mediocore, because 6.5k armor is only roughly 3% damage reduction at ICC gear levels (which can be really nice in certain situations, but is in typical burst scenarios less valuable than a 5k-6.4k health buffer from other trinkets' use effects or even than a 2k heal). It's not because of the 35%-mechanic.

read the bolded part.

The 35% mechanic is the thing that counts in the discussion not the dodge rating, which is why I intentionally said to ignore it in attempt to prevent the discussion from being derailed and focused on trinkets.

Trying to make a point about how/why/when the proc happens, and compare it to Blood Draining because it has the same requirements.

janaka · 05/19/10, 11:56 AM

I hear you. But you can't make a statement that "(it) is generally regarded as a less than optimal trinket because it provides a rarely-occurring proc" then. That's just plain wrong, the rarely-occurring proc is not the reason that this trinket is considered suboptimal.

But anyway, I did also respond to the actual topic, and I disagree with your judgement of the 35% mechanic.
Now, in the LK fight, Mongoose will definitely mitigate/avoid more damage than Blood Draining. It will likely mitigate/avoid more damage than BD will heal for. This doesn't tell much about tank death prevention.
Mongoose may or may not prevent one or more tank deaths by avoiding the killing blow. BD is very unlikely to save you from death on its own, but it helps your healers and your own cooldowns to save you. So just like Mongoose, it may or may not save your ass.

I don't believe it's possible to really calculate which enchant is 'better', unless you know every single variable of the fight. And then you wouldn't even need a weapon enchant.