[WotLK] 4.0 Warrior FAQ - Page 11

Trronn · 10/15/10, 9:50 PM

Originally Posted by Seran

At the moment my stat priority is along the lines of 8% hit > 98% Flurry uptime (35ish % crit) > 27% hit > 90% enrage uptime (Average of 1.8second swing time) > Mastery > extra AP/Haste/Crit.

With a 3.7s speed weapon, 25% haste (flurry), 10% melee haste (various class buff), you would need 49.5% haste from gear to get your average swing time to 1.8s.

3.7/1.25/1.1/1.495 ~= 1.8

Is there a melee haste buff that I'm failing to consider? If this is true, then it would seem like after meeting the crit for sufficient flurry uptime you would want to stack haste for maximum enrage uptime. That also assumes that 1.8s swing time is really what you need for 90% enrage uptime.

Something has to be wrong here, on my end or yours.

Satchmo69 · 10/15/10, 9:59 PM

The clipping system was redone so that if you Rend right before the last tick, that last tick will tacked on to the beginning of the new Rend. You can see this when you clip it in the middle: you will get Rends that last up to 17s.

With this new mechanic in mind, clipping Rend before the last tick might actually be better than letting it drop off to optimize uptime.

Badabigboom · 10/15/10, 9:59 PM

Originally Posted by Trronn

Is there a melee haste buff that I'm failing to consider?

The new Unholy DK ability, "Unholy Frenzy" which counts as a enrage and also stacks with Death Wish.

EDIT: This is the tool tip for the ability -

Induces a friendly unit into a killing frenzy for 30 sec. The target is Enraged, which increases their melee and ranged haste by 20%, but causes them to lose health equal to 2% of their maximum health every 3 sec.

Trronn · 10/15/10, 10:15 PM

I would think it would be ideal to consider buffs with near or absolute 100% uptime, because the goal is to give enrage a maximum uptime, not only during dps cooldowns such as unholy frenzy and/or bloodlust.

manwe858 · 10/15/10, 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by Satchmo69

The clipping system was redone so that if you Rend right before the last tick, that last tick will tacked on to the beginning of the new Rend. You can see this when you clip it in the middle: you will get Rends that last up to 17s.

With this new mechanic in mind, clipping Rend before the last tick might actually be better than letting it drop off to optimize uptime.

This is a very good point, I didn't notice this before. I tried a couple rotations of what you are suggesting but it doesn't line up very well... the very last tick of rend happens 3 seconds before the end which means you have less than 2 GCDs to refresh the rend. I find that this frequently coincides with MS CD and at this moment I'm inclined to lean toward letting it drop for MS anyway.

Seran · 10/16/10, 6:04 AM

Deleted

Rallik · 10/16/10, 6:09 AM

Originally Posted by Seran

Think we're both wrong in different area's

3.7 speed weapon with 25% haste from gear, 25% Flurry haste, and 10% melee haste buff should be....

3.7 * .75 * .75 *.9 = 1.87 swing time

My reasoning behind the 1.8speed swing time is you have a 9% chance to proc enrage that lasts 9 seconds (think my initial math was under the assumption that the enrage lasted 10 seconds). But you need 11 swings in 9 seconds to keep that 100% uptime (granted thats perfect world theory, like saying you only need 33% crit to keep up 100% flurry uptime). So, 9 / 11 = .81 Sicne we're dual wielding you multiply that by 2 and we get our needed swing time 1.62 on each weapon to keep up the enrage just through auto attacks.

Haste doesn't work like that. The person you're replying to had it right.

And for the love of god, at least know something about basic probability before you attempt it. That's not "perfect world theory." It's not any world theory. It's just wrong in every way. 11 swings in 9 seconds with a 9% chance to proc enrage gives you an actual theoretical uptime of 1-(1-.09)^11, which is 64.56%. 100% uptime is not possible, even with a billion swings per seconds. Something reasonably close, like say 99.9% uptime, would take 73.25 swings per second to reach.

Zynth · 10/16/10, 6:13 AM

Originally Posted by manwe858

This is a very good point, I didn't notice this before. I tried a couple rotations of what you are suggesting but it doesn't line up very well... the very last tick of rend happens 3 seconds before the end which means you have less than 2 GCDs to refresh the rend. I find that this frequently coincides with MS CD and at this moment I'm inclined to lean toward letting it drop for MS anyway.

With the last tick of Rend adding to a new application I considered the best place to refresh rend would be the free GCD right before you would apply MS.

0 Rend TfB
1.5 MS
3.0 OP/Free
4.5 OP/Free
6.0 MS TfB
7.5 OP/Free
9.0 OP/Free
10.5 MS
12.0 Free TfB
13.5 refresh Rend
15.0 starts over with MS

I've also been playing around with the idea of using Blood and Thunder to refresh rend at that mark for a little extra damage and the possibility of spreading Rend to adds.

Trronn · 10/16/10, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by Rallik

11 swings in 9 seconds with a 9% chance to proc enrage gives you an actual theoretical uptime of 1-(1-.09)^11, which is 64.56%. 100% uptime is not possible, even with a billion swings per seconds. Something reasonably close, like say 99.9% uptime, would take 73.25 swings per second to reach.

I had a sneaking suspicion that 1.8s swing time for 100% uptime was pulled out of thin air, or false logic, but this confirms it. Considering how unlikely it will be to approach 100% enrage uptime, I don't think there will be a cap on haste at any point, but rather a balance between the value of strength and haste. Also, as more mastery appears on gear, the value of haste will increase again.

loopgru · 10/16/10, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Zynth

I've also been playing around with the idea of using Blood and Thunder to refresh rend at that mark for a little extra damage and the possibility of spreading Rend to adds.

If you're specced into B&T for AoE, *and* you're glyphed for Resonating Power (not that hard given the relative dearth of particularly good majors), my testing shows that you could see either a slight DPS increase or, at worst, no net loss on single targets. Damage per TC / (Glyphed TC rage cost - Rend rage cost). That said, the resulting rotation is substantially less forgiving than the rend-based one, requiring 50% more rage to refresh the debuff and giving you a stricter window to reapply it; this is ameliorated slightly by the new additive final tick, but still poses problems.

That said, the question becomes moot in roughly 53 days- 52 'til Cataclysm comes out, then one additional to get to 81, get CS, and glyph it.

hellord · 10/16/10, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by loopgru

If you're specced into B&T for AoE, *and* you're glyphed for Resonating Power (not that hard given the relative dearth of particularly good majors), my testing shows that you could see either a slight DPS increase or, at worst, no net loss on single targets. Damage per TC / (Glyphed TC rage cost - Rend rage cost). That said, the resulting rotation is substantially less forgiving than the rend-based one, requiring 50% more rage to refresh the debuff and giving you a stricter window to reapply it; this is ameliorated slightly by the new additive final tick, but still poses problems.

That said, the question becomes moot in roughly 53 days- 52 'til Cataclysm comes out, then one additional to get to 81, get CS, and glyph it.

Well, once glyphed, TC will cost you 5 more rage every ~14s which isn't a big deal. Rend first tick is still something I need to test extensively after the changes, but assuming it is an additional "free" damage it would be 1/5th of Rend if used after it expires. If you need to refresh Rend before its last tick then TC is definetly a better replacement because it's 30% AP for 5 rage and you lose no OP damage due to delay.

Ideally it is probably more efficient to refresh Rend .1-.2s after its last tick so you lose only a rather marginal part of OP damage, but it's very awkward because it collides with the gcd and you are at a big risk of delaying MS or losing the opportunity for that GCD. However latest changes skewed the damage done by OP so refreshing before or after the last tick might be situationally different depending on cds and rage available.

If you have only 10 rage and Rend is going down, you might even just save rage and use Rend at 3.0s after last tick. It's annoying to track it and still hard to lose no OP dps, but is probably the same as rending before its expiration and losing its first tick with some delay on MS.

On a sidenote, I think with current mechanics mastery gets better than crit by a small margin and haste is becoming a joke, probably less than 2/3rd of crit and mastery and slightly more than 1/3rd of STR.

seanb · 10/16/10, 7:35 PM

As some posters have already said, Execute still consumes the additional rage during Deadly Calm. Is this intended or an oversight?

Second, with mastery now resulting in a 115% swing for arms are the values on the front page still the best stats for arms? Must like fury is working to maximize rage income (resulting in more HS) arms could benefit from more rage. HS, with incite, is an absolutely incredible DPS ability and I find myself favoring it far more than slam.

Wouldn't more mastery mean more white hits and therefore more rage?

e: I guess this is all assuming the mastery procs grant rage, which I don't actually know.

Shha · 10/16/10, 9:27 PM

What do you guys think about using Whirlwind and Cleave in rotation?

Cleave hits for around 75% of heroic strike damage, BEFORE stacking meat cleaver.
Cleave hits for over 95% of heroic strike damage AFTER stacking it.
If you keep meat cleaver going (not too hard, you can afford heroic strike every 8 sec easily, so you can afford a cleave), we get to use WW which hits for around 75% of heroic strike damage on a single target.

Such WW actually easily surpasses in damage per gcd bloodthirst procs, and provides much better DPR ratio (almost 90% of Heroic strike efficiency).

I guess main point is , it seems like a viable attack to hit during heroism/unholy frenzy, when we get enough rage to blow it away on such attacks.

Angeron · 10/16/10, 9:44 PM

Originally Posted by Shha

What do you guys think about using Whirlwind and Cleave in rotation?

Cleave hits for around 75% of heroic strike damage, BEFORE stacking meat cleaver.
Cleave hits for over 95% of heroic strike damage AFTER stacking it.
If you keep meat cleaver going (not too hard, you can afford heroic strike every 8 sec easily, so you can afford a cleave), we get to use WW which hits for around 75% of heroic strike damage on a single target.

Such WW actually easily surpasses in damage per gcd bloodthirst procs, and provides much better DPR ratio (almost 90% of Heroic strike efficiency).

I guess main point is , it seems like a viable attack to hit during heroism/unholy frenzy, when we get enough rage to blow it away on such attacks.

Heroic strike still hits harder than cleave even at 3 stacks of meat cleaver. So unless there is more than one target, you want to spend your rage on HS, similarly, if you have extra rage, instead of WW, use HS.

manwe858 · 10/17/10, 1:29 AM

Originally Posted by loopgru

If you're specced into B&T for AoE, *and* you're glyphed for Resonating Power (not that hard given the relative dearth of particularly good majors), my testing shows that you could see either a slight DPS increase or, at worst, no net loss on single targets. Damage per TC / (Glyphed TC rage cost - Rend rage cost). That said, the resulting rotation is substantially less forgiving than the rend-based one, requiring 50% more rage to refresh the debuff and giving you a stricter window to reapply it; this is ameliorated slightly by the new additive final tick, but still poses problems.

The problem that I see with this is would you be speccing out of incite or cruelty for it as in 4.01 we're somewhat limited by the amount of talent points we have. I'm not sure what the cast would be in cata. I don't think speccing B&T would be worth the damage lost from 10% HS crits and additional autocrits or 5% more MS crits.