Brewmaster (Tank) Basic Discussion - Page 12

baneberry.dalaran · 08/27/12, 7:54 PM

This may be one of the reasons monks were parsing higher than other tanks (not including the 2 days where our vengeance was broken)... my beta toon is hit capped and only 1% of expertise...and I still really notice when I miss a KS.

I was thinking that Elixirs might be another good way to get survivability... combine armor/haste (for dungeons heroics) or armor/expertise (raids), that way you don't have to run around expertise hardcapped outside of raids.

While the vlaue per point of armor is low... armor eilxirs provide a ton of it (2250), per Vens spreadsheet 2250 x .74 = 1665.. normalize that to agility by dividing by 1.52 = 1095 equivalent agility points.. better than any flask or enchant for survivability .

So if you have a guardian elixir for armor, you have a battle elixir for exp/haste

Kitmajere · 08/27/12, 9:57 PM

Originally Posted by baneberry.dalaran

This may be one of the reasons monks were parsing higher than other tanks (not including the 2 days where our vengeance was broken)... my beta toon is hit capped and only 1% of expertise...and I still really notice when I miss a KS.

I was thinking that Elixirs might be another good way to get survivability... combine armor/haste (for dungeons heroics) or armor/expertise (raids), that way you don't have to run around expertise hardcapped outside of raids.

While the vlaue per point of armor is low... armor eilxirs provide a ton of it (2250), per Vens spreadsheet 2250 x .74 = 1665.. normalize that to agility by dividing by 1.52 = 1095 equivalent agility points.. better than any flask or enchant for survivability .

So if you have a guardian elixir for armor, you have a battle elixir for exp/haste

Along these lines, does this make alchemy one of the best professions for us, since we can use it to get an armor bonus?

Chuupag · 08/28/12, 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by baneberry.dalaran

This may be one of the reasons monks were parsing higher than other tanks (not including the 2 days where our vengeance was broken)... my beta toon is hit capped and only 1% of expertise...and I still really notice when I miss a KS.

I was thinking that Elixirs might be another good way to get survivability... combine armor/haste (for dungeons heroics) or armor/expertise (raids), that way you don't have to run around expertise hardcapped outside of raids.

While the vlaue per point of armor is low... armor eilxirs provide a ton of it (2250), per Vens spreadsheet 2250 x .74 = 1665.. normalize that to agility by dividing by 1.52 = 1095 equivalent agility points.. better than any flask or enchant for survivability .

So if you have a guardian elixir for armor, you have a battle elixir for exp/haste

I was just planning on getting 2 sets of gear eventually, one for raids and one for dungeons. Just because that is alot of expertise to swing on just food buffs and elixirs to keep it at one set of gear. But if I am reading the challenge mode stuff correctly they will be 'raid equivalent' since the level of the mobs is increased from the heroic versions. So your raid gear would double as your challenge mode gear.

Taser · 08/28/12, 2:01 AM

Fu.. seems I took the wrong value for agi ->crit. It should indeed be 1259.52. Fixed in the spreadsheet.

Edit:
@venyasure
To proc a guard from the statue you calculate 16*pa which includes vengeance. In my initial tests only the ap without vengeance was calculated. Did that change somewhen during the Beta?

baneberry.dalaran · 08/28/12, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Kitmajere

Along these lines, does this make alchemy one of the best professions for us, since we can use it to get an armor bonus?

NOTE - I keep making reference to normalized agility... its how i get the 1.5 value of agil on the spreadsheet to be 1.00 to give us a baseline value of our primary stat.

the bonus armor from mixology is 480 x .74/ 1.51 = 235 agility equivalence ,and the 240 exp = 240 x 1.1 /1.5 = 175 agility normlized

That totals 410 bonus agility vs 320 from the other profs

Second to alchemy would be BS at 480 bonus hit (or exp) = 480 x 1.1 /1.5 = 350 bonus

Even herbalism is 3rd behind alchemy at a 480 haste equiv is worth = 480 x 1.01 (rounded down) /1.5 = 324 bonus which better than primary stats, and has a bonus heal.

The "best" , though, is engineering which provides 490 320 equiv agility in burst, which for tank switching is even more valuable because "burst defense" is better than sustained if you are working on a fight like Gara'jal

Edited - engineering is 320.. but since its "burst" its better for tank swap fights

Edit 2 - Herbalism losses, out.. its haste rating does NOT impact energy regn !

md096 · 08/28/12, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by baneberry.dalaran

The "best" , though, is engineering which provides 490 equiv agility in burst, which for tank switching is even more valuable because "burst defense" is better than sustained if you are working on a fight like Gara'jal

Eng was nerfed to 320 equiv according to a recent blue post and/or spell changes , but the "burst" aspect remains obviously.

Synapse Springs 1920*10/60=320

Ohdamn · 08/30/12, 5:34 AM

-- Brewmasters were proving extremely strong because they could maintain Shuffle as much as they wanted and Purify a very large amount of Staggered damage. Additionally, despite being very avoidance-heavy, they also were taking very smooth damage, since Stagger blunts so much of the attack’s damage. We reduced the base Stagger amount from 30% to 25%, and reduced the bonus energy regen provided by Stance of the Sturdy Ox from +30% to +10%.

Source: Beta Class Balance Analysis Pt. II - Forums - World of Warcraft
A pretty huge energy regen nerf

It seems like you can still stack shuffle though.

edit: lost about 2 energy/sec

Venyasure · 08/30/12, 10:01 AM

A pretty huge energy regen nerf

And the Excel that goes with it :

http://www.filedropper.com/brewmastergearcopy_5

Bug fixes :

- Swift Reflexes couldn't be blocked

New features :

- there is now an option on the second sheet to choose whether or not you want to include self heal (GotOx and EH self heal) ; you can enter a number between 0 and 1 (if 1, you include it fully, if 0, you don't take it into account)

- scrolling down the first sheet, there's a new button concerning DPS. You've got two new series of stat weights, the first is about dps increase with a tanking rotation (meaning the same Shuffle uptime is maintained, and Purifying Brew and Guard are used), the second is your dps should you spend all your Chi on Blackout Kick in case you want to maximise your dps. Don't be surprised if parry increases dps : it increases the number of Swift Reflexes.

Remarks :

- the energy regen nerf implies a much lower uptime, and a more narrow error margin : survival used to be more tolerant regarding Shuffle uptime, now the "OK + Graph" button shows a more severe curve should you not follow the optimal uptime (but the problem is still : what's a 75% uptime in game ?)

- as far as DPS is concerned, haste is far less useful to a Brewmaster than it is to a Windwalker. And remember that after 2550, exp is no more equal to hit since Expel Harm doesn't benefit from expertise after 7.5%.

baneberry.dalaran · 08/30/12, 11:43 PM

Ven,

GC is asking for theorycrafting data to support expertise hard capping... I will be linking your spreadsheet .

Taser · 08/31/12, 7:17 AM

OK...Blizzard thinks that Brewmasters are avoiding too much damage. They think that the reason for this is the possibility to keep shuffle up 100% of the time and also being able to purify a lot of this damage.

But how does this look like if we compare 3 of the different tanks with each other.

Passive damage reduction without any defensive stats but with 10000 STR/AGI for the sake of comparability:

Paladin
15% baseline damage reduction
45.64% damage reduction from armor (assuming 49k armor that my lvl90 paladin has)
0.50% Dodge
9.81% Parry
21% Block

Now let’s try to calculate the overall damage reduction of all these values to get an average:
100% – 15% = 85% * (1- 0.4564) = 46.206% remaining = 53.794% reduction

To get the reduction from Block we need to calculate the hittable:
100% - 0.5% - 9.81% = 89.69% * 21% * 30% = 5.65%

What do we know until now:
10.31 of 100 swings are being avoided = 0 damage at all
18.83 swings are being blocked = only 70% of the damage = that would be a flat 5.65% damage reduce in addition to the 53.794% reduction from spec + armor
the remaining 70.86 swings are just reduced by 53.794% from spec and armor

10.31 * 0 + 18.83 * 0.7 * 0.53794 + 70.86 * 0.53794 = 0 + 6.036 + 38.118 = 44.154% damage taken

Druid
0% baseline damage reduction
56.85% damage reduction from armor (assuming 17884 armor = 17000 from gear + 884 from base mastery)
6.67% Dodge
0% Parry
0% Block

Now let’s try to calculate the overall damage reduction of all these values to get an average:
100% – 0% = 100% * (1- 0.5685) = 43.15% remaining = 56.85% reduction

What do we know until now:
6.67 of 100 swings are being avoided = 0 damage at all
the remaining 93.33 swings are just reduced by 56.85% from armor

6.67 * 0 + 93.33 * 0.4315 = 0 + 40.272 = 40.272% damage taken

Monk
25% baseline damage reduction
22.56% damage reduction from armor (assuming 17k that my lvl90 monk has)
5.82% Dodge
3.5% Parry
0% Block
24% Stagger

Now let’s try to calculate the overall damage reduction of all these values to get an average:
100% – 25% = 75% * (1 – 0.2256) = 58.08% remaining = 41.92% reduction

Reduction from Stagger:
24% * 70% = 16.8%

What do we know until now:
9.35 of 100 swings are being avoided = 0 damage at all
the remaining 90.65 swings are reduced by 41.92% from spec and armor + 16.8% from stagger (assuming that we will purify 70% of the Dot)

9.35 * 0 + 90.65 * 0.5808 * 0.832 = 0 + 53.48 = 53.48% damage taken

Now we have the following chart

Paladin – 44.154% damage taken
Druid – 40.272% damage taken
Monk – 53.48% damage taken (to achieve this the Monk already has to invest 10 Chi in PB)

How do I get to these 10 CHI?

I take the time between 2 PB in seconds, let’s call it “cycle”.
Now I need the “hittimer” of the boss = swingtimer / (1 – avoid%)
Third we need Stagger in % of incoming damage.
DOTtotal = cycle / hittimer * stagger

Next we calculate the average tick that we take:
DOTtick = DOTtotal / 10 / 2

Now we have everything in place to find out how much of the DOT is being purified:
DOTtaken = cycle * DOTtick
Purified% = 1 – (DOTtaken / DOTtotal)

Example with 10xPB, 9.35% avoidance and a 2s swingtimer:
DOTtotal = 6 / 2.222 * 0.24 = 0.648
DOTtick = 0.648 / 10 / 2 = 0.0324
DOTtaken = 6 x 0.0324 = 0.1944
Purified% = 1 – (0.1944 / 0.648) = 0.7 = 70%

The whole formula can be simplified to:
((PBcount * 2) - 6) / (PBcount * 2)

After that let me get back to the point.

With +30% energyreg Monks had about 14.22 energy/sec with 4000 hasterating. That resulted in about 31 chi per Minute. If we take the above data then this would mean that we were able to keep shuffle up 100% and purify 70% of it while still having 1 spare chi.

Let’s redo the math for the monk:
25% baseline damage reduction
22.56% damage reduction from armor (assuming 17k that my lvl90 monk has)
5.82% Dodge
23.5% Parry
0% Block
44% Stagger

Now let’s try to calculate the overall damage reduction of all these values to get an average:
100% – 25% = 75% * (1 – 0.2256) = 58.08% remaining = 41.92% reduction

Reduction from Stagger:
44% * 70% = 30.8%

What do we know until now:
29.35 of 100 swings are being avoided = 0 damage at all
the remaining 70.65 swings are reduced by 41.92% from spec and armor + 30.8% from stagger (assuming that we will purify 70% of the Dot)

29.35 * 0 + 70.65 * 0.5808 * 0.692 = 0 + 28.395 = 28.395% damage taken

This means that we got an additional 25.085% damage reduction from our active mitigation.

After the change we will lose about 173 energy per minute at 4000 haste = about 3.3 CHI. Now we can decide what we want to do: keep shuffle at 100% uptime or purify more often.

100% uptime of shuffle would mean that we would have 7.7 chi left for PB = 61.04% being purified
Purifying 70% would still need 10 chi and would result in a shuffle uptime of 88.5%

Let’s compare these 2 possibilities:

100% shuffle uptime
Reduction from Stagger:
44% * 61.04% = 26.86%

29.35 * 0 + 70.65 * 0.5808 * 0.7314 = 0 + 30.01 = 30.01% damage taken

70% stagger purified
Reduction from Stagger:
41.7% * 70% = 29.19%

27.05 * 0 + 72.95 * 0.5808 * 0.7081 = 0 + 30.00 = 30.00% damage taken

Overall the difference is not that much. If we were mitigating too much difference before, then this change did not solve this problem. Our emphasis will move completely to optimizing shuffle + PB, as this is our reliable form active mitigation. Any other abilities that cost chi will be valued against the combination of shuffle + PB. The only result from this is that it makes bad Brewmasters even worse as there is less room for mistakes.

Yörgle · 08/31/12, 9:14 AM

Banberry (or any US player willing to relay the message), would you mind asking on the thread it the Light stagger debuff could be blue please ? (The icon already exists IG ! File:Priest icon chakra blue.png - Wowpedia - Your wiki guide to the World of Warcraft )
I know this might sound superfluous, but for some people it's hard to distinguish the green from the yellow. I'm slightly color-blind and I'm not sure this the reason why, but I can never tell the difference between light and moderate stagger.

Venyasure · 08/31/12, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by baneberry.dalaran

Ven,

GC is asking for theorycrafting data to support expertise hard capping... I will be linking your spreadsheet .

Well, the point is that either expertise stat weight is under haste, in which case you don't add expertise to your gear, or expertise is better, in which case it's better until the hard cap. It simply can't be better until a certain value, and then become less effective. Well, it could if hit/exp were close to haste, but they clearly aren't close enough. There can't be a transition point after which expertise becomes bad, even if Exp loses part of its value as you're increasing it.

The (slightly simplified) formula giving the chance to land an attack is something like :

77.5 + hit + exp

So if a 1% increase in hit chance corresponds to a XXX Chi per second increase or a YYY GotOx increase, that will still be the case whether you've got 0% or 14% expertise (warning, that's a simplistic way to phrase it, more reflexion is needed, but still...).

Remember that Hit/Expertise is beneficial for :
- Chi generation : extremely beneficial for overall survival (a missed Keg Smash is nightmarish, and a missed Jab costs no less than 8 energy !)
- Enchant procs (only hit if you consider Colossus) : not great, but still...
- Gift of the Ox : that's a gigantic (ok, i'm exagerating a little) healing
- Statue of the Ox : hit/exp are really great for that Brewmaster statue
- the reduction of lost gcd spent on missing your BK (and other attacks), which diminishes the number of spare gcd for TP : and that's included too in the spreadsheet

Hit/exp are behind haste only if you consider neither GotOx nor the Statue.

Chuupag · 08/31/12, 5:09 PM

Originally Posted by Venyasure

Remember that Hit/Expertise is beneficial for :
- Chi generation : extremely beneficial for overall survival (a missed Keg Smash is nightmarish, and a missed Jab costs no less than 8 energy !)
- Enchant procs (only hit if you consider Colossus) : not great, but still...
- Gift of the Ox : that's a gigantic (ok, i'm exagerating a little) healing
- Statue of the Ox : hit/exp are really great for that Brewmaster statue
- the reduction of lost gcd spent on missing your BK (and other attacks), which diminishes the number of spare gcd for TP : and that's included too in the spreadsheet

Hit/exp are behind haste only if you consider neither GotOx nor the Statue.

Hit/exp are also beneficial for Elusive Brew uptime. More white attacks that land = more white attacks that can crit = more elusive brew charges = better uptime on the 30% dodge buff.

Venyasure · 08/31/12, 5:55 PM

No, hit/exp won't increase the crit chance of a white attack, because white attacks use the one roll system. If you've got 20% crit chance, then when you launch a white attack, there will be a 20% probability that this attack will be critical, no matter your hit/exp. With 0 hit/exp, the hit table looks like :

- 7.5% dodge
- 7.5% parry
- 7.5% miss (26.5% for DW)
- 24% glance
- 20% crit
- the rest for hit (33,5% if i'm not mistaken)

Because of the one roll system, Elusive Brew doesn't benefit from hit/exp.

Veras · 08/31/12, 6:13 PM

Parried/dodged/missed BoK gives shuffle now on beta - is this already accounted for in your spreadsheet or is this a new change?