Brewmaster (Tank) Basic Discussion - Page 16

Neara · 10/12/12, 9:56 AM

@venyasure
finally i too can say thank you for the spreadsheet.

I don't own Microsoft Excel and LibreOffice always hit me with a runtime error.
The Problem is in the loop starting at line 99, where the values from sheet3 are put into order in sheet1.

 For i = 1 To 11
  Worksheets(1).Cells(i + 8, 1) = Worksheets(3).Cells(Worksheets(3).Cells(i, 4), 5)
  Worksheets(1).Cells(i + 8, 4) = Worksheets(3).Cells(Worksheets(3).Cells(i, 4), 3)
 Next

LibreOffice doesn't like to get the Cell Coordinate out of another cell directly, so i had to put it into a variable first

 For i = 1 To 11
  cellvar = Worksheets(3).Cells(i, 4)
  Worksheets(1).Cells(i + 8, 1) = Worksheets(3).Cells(cellvar, 5)
  Worksheets(1).Cells(i + 8, 4) = Worksheets(3).Cells(cellvar, 3)
 Next

Something you may want to add to open your spreadsheet up to a larger audience

thanks again for all the work

@Feng(hc)
We tried him last night (still a some way to go, damn he hurts). A bit more stam seems to be preferable here, but i can't say that I was any worse off than our warrior tank.

Question about Xuen: his scaling with my stats updates while he is active, right? or does he stay with a snapshot of my stats from when he is summoned?

tastysnack · 10/12/12, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Neara

@venyasure
finally i too can say thank you for the spreadsheet.

I don't own Microsoft Excel and LibreOffice always hit me with a runtime error.
The Problem is in the loop starting at line 99, where the values from sheet3 are put into order in sheet1.

 For i = 1 To 11
  Worksheets(1).Cells(i + 8, 1) = Worksheets(3).Cells(Worksheets(3).Cells(i, 4), 5)
  Worksheets(1).Cells(i + 8, 4) = Worksheets(3).Cells(Worksheets(3).Cells(i, 4), 3)
 Next

LibreOffice doesn't like to get the Cell Coordinate out of another cell directly, so i had to put it into a variable first

 For i = 1 To 11
  cellvar = Worksheets(3).Cells(i, 4)
  Worksheets(1).Cells(i + 8, 1) = Worksheets(3).Cells(cellvar, 5)
  Worksheets(1).Cells(i + 8, 4) = Worksheets(3).Cells(cellvar, 3)
 Next

Something you may want to add to open your spreadsheet up to a larger audience

thanks again for all the work

Indeed, thank you Venya

However, why not put it on Google Docs and code it in Javascript? Then there's less worry about compilation errors.

Originally Posted by Neara

We tried him last night (still a some way to go, damn he hurts). A bit more stam seems to be preferable here, but i can't say that I was any worse off than our warrior tank.

Gotcha

Bit confused by your PB comments. I may have misunderstood the mechanics, but to me using PB and Guard simultaneously makes the most sense, unless your Stagger is quite low before the stun. If you Guard to dampen the incoming burst, why not PB too? Also, your Stagger should be higher than normal if anything after being stunned, surely. I would definitely PB immediately after coming out of a stun. Sorry if I'm nitpicking a very specific situation!

You aren't nitpicking - but that's what I'm doing, and I might not've explained properly. If I can, I PB/guard before the stun, but typically I'm only able to Guard just before. Then, if I'm NOT at a light stagger (which, typically after Guard, I am only at a light stagger) then I'll PB after the stun.

That said, we changed it up last night, and now the other tank is taking the hits while I eat the Lightning Fists. This has made it so I never rise above a Light Stagger, and therefore haven't seen any need in using PB during the first phase. Of course, this could change in Heroic.

Kozaky · 10/12/12, 3:25 PM

I'm more or less completely new to theorycrafting, spreadsheets, and all of this as a whole. I've tanked before on my DK in Cata, but Monk stats are throwing me off. So far I've been going a Haste/Crit heavy build hitting hit hard cap and expertise soft cap. Has anyone experimented with a heavier agi/stam/mastery build? I'm considering using 12 energy regen a second as my haste cap until 13 can be comfortably reached and trying for a heavier mastery build, but I'm not sure how to make the spreadsheet do that (or if it can at all. Again I'm completely new to spreadsheets)

Also have we come to a conclusion about the new DMF Stam trinket, and whether DW or 2H would be preferential? Or is it simply get what you can get?

Villem Libra · 10/12/12, 9:42 PM

While reading through our Feng Heroic logs I made the troubling discovery, that my Ox statue did not proc a single Guard on fellow raiders. My uptime on SotO was at 96%, so that was not the problem.

So I went to Orgrimmar, grabbed a guildmate and tested my theory on the training dummies.

I highly doubt it is working as intended, that glyphed Guard does not provide the Guard shields on the raid?
The animation is there, but the shield does not actually activate.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Trosean · 10/13/12, 12:59 AM

I've been reading over and trying to find several threads comparing how Brewmasters feel compared to their other tanks in raids. I have not stepped in to heroic modes yet, so I can't comment on those encounters. However, I did notice something weird when going over the logs of our fights. I don't know if you guys are only looking at World of Logs for comparing tank damage, but - The "Damage Taken" log was vastly different than 2 things:

a)Damage Taken provided by Skada
b)Healing Taken provided by the same World of Logs parse

I'm sorry if this has already been complemented on, but in some of my logs I'm taking 7 million more damage than I'm being healed for. That's enough to kill me about 14 times over, and I don't think I was battle rezzed 14 times during the fight. This leads me to believe that I am missing something, or that the way Brewmaster Damage Taken is parsed is incorrect somehow. I encourage those who do live logs to start comparing the "Damage Taken" meters per attempt with Skada or Recount or whichever mod you use for that sort of thing.

Here is an example log: The Brewmaster (Trosean) takes about 18 million more damage than healing, while everyone elses DT/HT is a mere gap of a couple hundred thousand on our "Will of the Emperor" kill. Is there a reason for this that I am missing other than it may be parsing incorrectly due to the Stagger mechanic?

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

~Tro

edit: If this has already been discussed then I'm sorry!

Kitmajere · 10/13/12, 3:21 AM

Originally Posted by Villem Libra

While reading through our Feng Heroic logs I made the troubling discovery, that my Ox statue did not proc a single Guard on fellow raiders. My uptime on SotO was at 96%, so that was not the problem.

So I went to Orgrimmar, grabbed a guildmate and tested my theory on the training dummies.

I highly doubt it is working as intended, that glyphed Guard does not provide the Guard shields on the raid?
The animation is there, but the shield does not actually activate.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

I believe this is a known bug. I also have problems getting my statute to proc bubbles on the raid for other fights as well - even w/o the glyph (both SG and Feng HM kills this week). Is there any known explanation? Or way to reset my toon to get it working again?

Also, how are people gearing for H Gara'jal? Reducing voodoo doll damage is paramount, but meeting the tight enrage and killing my adds below matter as well. I certainly have more stam than I need so I can focus on avoidance and regem/enchant/gear for agi? Or would mastery be a better choice? I do have time to get some decent shuffle stacking before the other tank gets banished, but the raid takes my stagger ticks as well as far as I can tell, so mastery doesn't seem *that* awesome. I'll also use PB more than usual to alleviate some of the stress on the raid.
Either way I'm going to keep my hit cap/soft expertise cap I think.

Neara · 10/13/12, 6:25 AM

@trosean
The problem with WoL is that it counts absorbed damage as damage taken and Stagger is displayed as absorbed in the combatlog. If you want exact numbers you have to go into the details of the char, go to the damage tab and subtract absorbed damage displayed there from damage taken (same for other tanks, esp. warriors in fights where they use shield barrier a lot)

Talden · 10/13/12, 7:18 AM

Originally Posted by Kitmajere

I believe this is a known bug. I also have problems getting my statute to proc bubbles on the raid for other fights as well - even w/o the glyph (both SG and Feng HM kills this week). Is there any known explanation? Or way to reset my toon to get it working again?

Also, how are people gearing for H Gara'jal? Reducing voodoo doll damage is paramount, but meeting the tight enrage and killing my adds below matter as well. I certainly have more stam than I need so I can focus on avoidance and regem/enchant/gear for agi? Or would mastery be a better choice? I do have time to get some decent shuffle stacking before the other tank gets banished, but the raid takes my stagger ticks as well as far as I can tell, so mastery doesn't seem *that* awesome. I'll also use PB more than usual to alleviate some of the stress on the raid.
Either way I'm going to keep my hit cap/soft expertise cap I think.

I don't have this problem, have you looked through your logs to make sure your reading them right? On our stone guards wipes/kill as well as some short testing on feng this is the overall healing done by me and as you can see the guard from my statue was up more than my own guard was, unless im reading the logs wrong?

As for H gara'jal if your PB a lot haste will most likely help but as far as i'm aware if your lacking on dps when crit is a higher increase in dps than haste is, I personally haven't got to him yet but i reforged and changed down for the expertise cap and went mastery/ stamina for stone guard on our first attempts and honestly i found it hard work trying to keep shuffle up and PB a lot so i assume you will have the same problem if you did this on gara'jal (maybe not as much when your not tanking but i assume its the same as normal where you won't be off tanking for so long that you can build up a stupid amount of shuffle).

Baconslicer · 10/13/12, 7:59 AM

Originally Posted by Trosean

Is there a reason for this that I am missing other than it may be parsing incorrectly due to the Stagger mechanic?

Numerically, the Stagger mechanic looks like a not-impossible culprit. As a theory, let's pretend that incoming hits get logged at the full damage without any stagger reduction, and then whatever damage you do end up taking from non-purified Stagger ticks gets logged as additional damage on top.

Does this theory fit the evidence?

Let's assume that the healing number of 27m is the actual amount of damage taken, more or less. The breakdown of incoming damage by spell for that fight shows that the total damage from non-stagger sources is about 37m. By the theory, some percentage of that 37m was actually rolled into the stagger dot rather than taken directly, and the 10m difference is what you purged with PB. You took an actual 8m of damage from stagger ticks, so the breakdown would have to look like this:

37.4m total incoming damage, pre-stagger
- 18.9m taken directly
- 18.5m rolled into stagger (but logged as damage taken anyway)
  - 8.1m taken as stagger ticks (and logged again as damage taken)
  - 10.3m purged with PB

This makes the real damage taken as 18.9m direct, 8.1m from stagger ticks, for the total 27.0m that you were actually healed for. You purged 56% of your staggered damage with PB, and so overall the stagger/purify mechanic was worth 27% DR to you in this fight.

So, if all that's true... let's try and predict how much mastery you have on your tanking gear! All the incoming damage was physical, except for the 1.7m from Titan Gas, so the incoming damage that was staggerable was 35.6m.

This means you averaged a Stagger amount of ((8.1m ticks + 10.3m purged) / 35.6m incoming physical) = 51.75%. Hmm.

20% from Ox Stance, 4% from Elusive Brawler at 0 mastery, 89% shuffle uptime gives another 17.8%, so you'd have to get the remaining 9.96% from mastery. I read elsewhere that it's 600 mastery rating for 1%, so that's around 6000 rating needed. Blessing of Might (or equivalent) is worth 3000, so the prediction is that you had around 3000 on your gear at the time. That's.... not implausible! I was worried it'd predict like 50k, or some negative amount.

Armory says..... 1050 mastery rating on what you had on when you logged. Hrm. Maybe that isn't your tanking set? It's showing double Windsong enchants, but WoL recorded Colossus procs, so at the very least you had different enchants during the fight.

All that to say: this seems like a reasonably possible explanation to me, given this log. The next step is to do some controlled tests to confirm whether this is really what's going on.

e: other people got in while I was doing math. What Neara said above makes sense to me and fits with this; you take the full amount but some of the hit is marked as absorbed, so it counts the full amount as "damage taken" and then counts the Stagger ticks as extra damage on top of it.

Villem Libra · 10/13/12, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by Talden

I don't have this problem, have you looked through your logs to make sure your reading them right? On our stone guards wipes/kill as well as some short testing on feng this is the overall healing done by me and as you can see the guard from my statue was up more than my own guard was, unless im reading the logs wrong?

The question is: Did you use the Guard glyph? Because when I unglyph Guard, the shields proc normally.

When you take a look at the Log I posted earlier, you will see that:

1) I have a 96% SotO uptime, which means the Ox statue was present and in range until I died.

2) I inflicted more than enough damage, to proc dozens of potential shields.

3) Not a single Guard has been cast by the Ox statue.

If I interpret these logs correctly, this is a serious problem with SotO being one of the monk's most important abilities in terms of raid support.

Talden · 10/13/12, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Villem Libra

The question is: Did you use the Guard glyph? Because when I unglyph Guard, the shields proc normally.

When you take a look at the Log I posted earlier, you will see that:

1) I have a 96% SotO uptime, which means the Ox statue was present and in range until I died.

2) I inflicted more than enough damage, to proc dozens of potential shields.

3) Not a single Guard has been cast by the Ox statue.

If I interpret these logs correctly, this is a serious problem with SotO being one of the monk's most important abilities in terms of raid support.

Ah no i didn't have Guard glyphed i assumed you was asking as a general question without the glyph. I'll do some testing to see if its the case for me as well.

Edit: Your right, i tested it and as soon as you put the glyph on it doesn't apply the guard buff to the raid anymore, the animation from the statue happens but no buff is apply to its target.. Must be a bug that blizzard aren't aware of. Otherwise it would be pretty stupid having the statue not work when you glyph it

Tsuki Ko · 10/13/12, 1:17 PM

Talking about Guard and bugs, anyone noticed it fading too soon? Before its 30s duration, also before absorbing its full value.

For example, this log shows the occasions it happened. This slice shows the unfiltered log for the first Guard period, showing that there wasn't a big hit that could have caused it to fade.

Another example from this week's Will of the Emperor kill: events, slice from the first Guard. And one from a random log found on WoL, just to show it's not an isolated occurrence.

I don't recall it happening while solo, though.

Villem Libra · 10/13/12, 2:23 PM

Originally Posted by Tsuki Ko

Talking about Guard and bugs, anyone noticed it fading too soon? Before its 30s duration, also before absorbing its full value.

For example, this log shows the occasions it happened. This slice shows the unfiltered log for the first Guard period, showing that there wasn't a big hit that could have caused it to fade.

Another example from this week's Will of the Emperor kill: events, slice from the first Guard. And one from a random log found on WoL, just to show it's not an isolated occurrence.

I don't recall it happening while solo, though.

Just tested it on receiving damage. The Shield despawns/holds properly. Further, I asked a pally to give me Sacred Shield while Guard was up - no abnormal behavior.
Did you have the oppurtunity to test for possible problems with the Colossus proc? (I am running double Windsong, so I can't test it right now).

Other than that I can't see anything that might have caused the sudden drop of Guard in the Logs you provided.

Tsuki Ko · 10/13/12, 2:58 PM

Ok, I had time to test it more closely. I found what causes it to happen, and if someone can confirm it I'd be thankful.

When the statue casts Guard, your own Guard is removed.

I could reproduce it by simply being in a group and dpsing target dummies. If you don't have the statue out your Guard will last its full duration, with the statue out Guard will fade every time the statue casts one.

To make sure it had nothing to do with enchants and trinket procs I tested it naked as well, same results.

Villem Libra · 10/13/12, 3:12 PM

Originally Posted by Tsuki Ko

Ok, I had time to test it more closely. I found what causes it to happen, and if someone can confirm it I'd be thankful.

When the statue casts Guard, your own Guard is removed.

I could reproduce it by simply being in a group and dpsing target dummies. If you don't have the statue out your Guard will last its full duration, with the statue out Guard will fade every time the statue casts one.

To make sure it had nothing to do with enchants and trinket procs I tested it naked as well, same results.

I can confirm this. As soon as the party member got his shield, mine was removed with no incoming damage and +15 seconds on the duration of my Guard.

With Brewmaster's already relatively unstable mitigation, this needs to be fixed ASAP.
It makes casting Guard in a raid situation almost a waste of 2 Chi, Since the rediculous amount of AP a raid tank currently has makes us spam out those SotO Guards...