Brewmaster (Tank) Basic Discussion - Page 22

avalya · 10/26/12, 6:31 PM

I feel that Power Strikes should probably provide more DPS, as we get more Tiger Palms in, rather than Jabs (since we theoretically get 1 more Tiger Palm for that free chi), and as mentioned, it should be around 9k haste that you actually gain from it in terms of raw numbers when it comes to chi, but you'll have less globals for other things.

The change is nice, and that extra chi being able to be pooled up is certainly nice as well (thinking about downtimes when you're saving up for Touch of Death + 2 chi for that Guard/BoK).

Bemxuu · 10/27/12, 11:42 PM

You both assume perfect usage of Power Strikes. In not-so-perfect world you will be delaying your Jab from time to time, reducing the value of Power Strikes. And the energy keeps flowing in the mean time.

Spleener · 10/28/12, 12:57 AM

Originally Posted by Bemxuu

You both assume perfect usage of Power Strikes. In not-so-perfect world you will be delaying your Jab from time to time, reducing the value of Power Strikes. And the energy keeps flowing in the mean time.

Yeah, especially since KS and sometimes EH take priority as chi generators, in practice the time between your PS procs is going to be more than 22 seconds. The point at which 5.1 Ascension pulls ahead is probably around the 5k haste level at most.

avalya · 10/28/12, 8:46 AM

Yeah, I was assuming perfect usage of PS, but since it's not going to happen I believe they will be close - depends on what you're after though. For some extra DPS I'd assume PS to go ahead, but it might lack slightly in survivability compared to Ascension. It will mostly fall down to preference, but to be honest, Ascension seems like what I'm going with - since it allows me to drop some haste in favor of crit.

Neckface · 10/28/12, 11:51 AM

I think that math on Power Strikes is making a fence-posting error. You get one free Chi at T = 0, and then every ~22 seconds. So in the first 88 seconds you actually get 5 Chi, not 4. The average benefit goes down as fights get longer. Whereas with the Ascension change the benefit is invariant with duration.

The related benefit is that Power Strikes gives you the ability to get a Shuffle/Guard one GCD earlier after a pull.

All that said, I personally would lean toward Ascension because it's one less thing to think about, and Brewmaster is complicated enough.

EDIT: Thinking about this more, I think theory has to factor in only 0.5 extra Chi, not a full one, because of fence-posting on the other end.

MomysLidlMonsta · 10/29/12, 5:12 AM

Originally Posted by Neckface

I think that math on Power Strikes is making a fence-posting error. You get one free Chi at T = 0, and then every ~22 seconds. So in the first 88 seconds you actually get 5 Chi, not 4. The average benefit goes down as fights get longer. Whereas with the Ascension change the benefit is invariant with duration.

The related benefit is that Power Strikes gives you the ability to get a Shuffle/Guard one GCD earlier after a pull.

All that said, I personally would lean toward Ascension because it's one less thing to think about, and Brewmaster is complicated enough.

EDIT: Thinking about this more, I think theory has to factor in only 0.5 extra Chi, not a full one, because of fence-posting on the other end.

That is an often overlooked fact about Chi Brew actually.
You get 4 Chi in the beginning and 4 every 90s

Considering optimal usage it takes the current Power Strikes 9 minutes to generate the same amount of Chi (math below).
With 22s cooldown on Power Strikes that would amount to 49.5 minutes.
5.1 Ascension would need an energy regeneration of more than 13.5 energy/s before Ascension to break even in under 10 minutes.

As I said before though that is only true if you use Chi Brew on cooldown without wasting energy or chi, which is about impossible. But I still prefer it, because you can get that Chi when you need it the most.

------- Math section -----

Chi Brew: 4 + 4*t/90

20s Power Strikes: 1 + t/20
4 + 4t/90 = 1 + t/20  => 80 + 80t/90 = 20 + t  => 60 = t/9  => t = 540

22s Power Strikes: 1 + t/22
4 + 4t/90 = 1 + t/22  => 88 + 88t/90 = 22+ t  => 66 = t*2/90  => t = 2970

5.1 Ascension: t*energy_regen*0.15/40 = t * 0.00375 * energy_regen
at 10 minutes:
4 + 4*600/90 = 600*enery_regen*0.00375 => 30,666667 = 2,25 * energy_regen => energy_regen = 13,63

Bemxuu · 10/29/12, 9:11 AM

You forgot to account for Neckface's note on 0,5 Chi gains. That's a cooldown thing: you don't get to use second CB unless you've spent the whole 90s in combat. To account for randomness of an encounter duration we must cut the effect of last one in half, effectively leaving us with aforementioned 0,5*Chi_Gains+(Time/Cooldown)*Chi_Gains.
So, if I made no silly mistakes, corrected numbers are 12,74 energy in Asc case and 1485 seconds for PS.

Neckface · 10/29/12, 2:11 PM

Originally Posted by MomysLidlMonsta

As I said before though that is only true if you use Chi Brew on cooldown without wasting energy or chi, which is about impossible. But I still prefer it, because you can get that Chi when you need it the most.

On a related note, you can't actually use CB at T=0 without wasting energy. You have to have both energy below 50-ish and Chi at zero before using it. Which means something like: KS, BK, Jab, Jab, BK. So at a minimum you can use CB at T=5.

Bemxuu · 10/29/12, 2:54 PM

Originally Posted by Neckface

On a related note, you can't actually use CB at T=0 without wasting energy. You have to have both energy below 50-ish and Chi at zero before using it. Which means something like: KS, BK, Jab, Jab, BK. So at a minimum you can use CB at T=5.

Why not EH pre-pull? That saves one Jab and lets you use your CB at T=4.

Neckface · 10/29/12, 3:04 PM

Originally Posted by Bemxuu

Why not EH pre-pull? That saves one Jab and lets you use your CB at T=4.

Seems like that would work. KS -> BK -> Jab -> BK -> (CB off GCD) -> BK -> BK.

That's 80 energy used, and 50+ (depending on haste) regenerated.

qwas · 10/30/12, 2:58 PM

Isn't Power Strikes in 5.1 going to work like say Sacred Shield absorb?
You will get buff exactly every 22 seconds, no matter if you delay jab for 1 sec or 20sec.

Anyone with PTR client ? :P

Power Strikes - Spell - World of Warcraft

Bemxuu · 10/30/12, 10:02 PM

Brewmaster Training no longer stacks the Tiger Palm portion.

Also a thing to check. Am I reading it right, that now Guard is buffed by 5% only rather than by 5% times three? That's on PTR, of course.

Lano · 10/31/12, 1:23 AM

Looks like they just removed the tiger portion but not the guard.

greywolfamakir · 10/31/12, 8:28 AM

Hello

From PTR.

Same effect, without stacks.

Tsuki Ko · 10/31/12, 5:31 PM

Originally Posted by qwas

Isn't Power Strikes in 5.1 going to work like say Sacred Shield absorb?
You will get buff exactly every 22 seconds, no matter if you delay jab for 1 sec or 20sec.

Anyone with PTR client ? :P

Power Strikes - Spell - World of Warcraft

Tested on PTR today, it was indeed changed to work like that. You get a Power Strikes buff every 22s, not 22s after it's consumed.

Bottom line, you get one extra chi every 22s regardless of how much you delay that Jab.