Brewmaster (Tank) Basic Discussion - Page 25

Venyasure · 11/16/12, 8:17 AM

Originally Posted by Yörgle

sure you gain some ressource gen (and therefore mitigation through PB), but the gain is quite negligeable while your DPS will drop significantly.

That's not really what i said. Answering to someone who asked whether he sould increase his hit/exp, i said that doing so would be a negligible loss in overall damage avoided, but a great dps gain. Remember that all the calculations i've done so far are about overall damage avoided, over a long period of time, which is cearly not the only thing that matters for a tank. And the reason why hit and expertise are highly valued in the spreadsheet is partly because of their contribution to the Statue of the Ox, not because of their benefits for overall personal damage mitigation.

Concerning Chi generation, haste is ahead of hit/exp for overall Chi gain. And there can be little debate about it, the formula in my previous message shows it :

You just have to calculate dervatives, and haste appears to be about 20% better (roughly) than hit/exp for overall Chi generation. But there is another difference : even if haste gives you more Chi, hit/exp increase the chance to give Chi when you actually press the buttons by reducing the risks of Jab and Keg Smash misses.

Additionally, haste remains powerful concerning Elusive Brew. And, as i said, hit/exp are the strongest dps stats (which can help your raid, and enhance the Statue).

Gearing your Monk thus becomes a balance between the quantitative and the qualitative advantages of each stat. The spreadsheet gives the quantitative ones. If you are to use it, always keep in mind the qualitative.

Fabus · 11/17/12, 10:14 AM

Hey guys, i've got a question. what's the right way to gem? should i gem pure haste or pure agi or mastery?! for encounters like will gemming mastery is a good choice but overall gemming tactic.

my ilvl is about 491 Genoqt EU Gorgonnash

Renew · 11/18/12, 1:10 AM

Originally Posted by Fabus

Hey guys, i've got a question. what's the right way to gem? should i gem pure haste or pure agi or mastery?! for encounters like will gemming mastery is a good choice but overall gemming tactic.

my ilvl is about 491 Genoqt EU Gorgonnash

You should have read through the last few pages of this thread before asking this...

People feel that both work... I have seen progressed Monks go full Mastery, full Haste etc.

MGC13760 · 11/21/12, 7:30 AM

Can someone help me with my monk please ive been told numerous times im dps geared any help would be appreciated. This is my monk Drunkñmaster @ Draka - Community - World of Warcraft

md096 · 11/21/12, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by MGC13760

Can someone help me with my monk please ive been told numerous times im dps geared any help would be appreciated. This is my monk Drunkñmaster @ Draka - Community - World of Warcraft

If you truly are "dps geared", then you are just fine for 99% of normal content. The only thing that makes monk dps gear become tank gear is gems and reforges that may prioritize a particular stat in response to a specific damage profile from a particular boss. However, no reforge and gem strategies out there use traditional tanking stats like dodge and parry, it will always also be viable dps stats, haste, crit or mastery.

I did not look at your gear, you logged out in mistweaver stuff, but if it is leather, with primary stat of agility, and agility based accessories and weapons, then it is monk tank gear. All you have to do is look at the Red Crane Armor, Brewmaster Tier 14 to see this. Just don't look at the shoulders, they muddy the water a bit.

Asmalya · 11/22/12, 1:32 AM

Originally Posted by md096

If you truly are "dps geared", then you are just fine for 99% of normal content. The only thing that makes monk dps gear become tank gear is gems and reforges that may prioritize a particular stat in response to a specific damage profile from a particular boss. However, no reforge and gem strategies out there use traditional tanking stats like dodge and parry, it will always also be viable dps stats, haste, crit or mastery.

I did not look at your gear, you logged out in mistweaver stuff, but if it is leather, with primary stat of agility, and agility based accessories and weapons, then it is monk tank gear. All you have to do is look at the Red Crane Armor, Brewmaster Tier 14 to see this. Just don't look at the shoulders, they muddy the water a bit.

Exactly.
I wanted to add that you should just dont listen to people that never ever played monk themself and have no clue how the class works.
I've heard that comment 1-2 times too in the past "Thats dps gear isnt it?"
Just tell people haste / crit are one of your most valuable stats (since we talk about 5m iam going to ignore mastery a bit...)

Blackbull_chogall · 11/22/12, 4:43 AM

Hi here,

i am a monk healer in a 25 man guild making our way in the heart of fear (thus not very skilled :-) ). We have monk and paladin tanks, and we struggle to keep our monk alive against blade lord ta yak's Overwhelming Assault . Our monk had 450k hp, and Overwhelming Assault does 600k+ dmg. Surely, we will improve CD rotations (tanks and heal) to make him survive, but i'd like to know your advice on monk tank survability against isolated 'truck' attacks, outside of CDs. From the enchant/gemming point of view, our monk follow the way of agi/hit/expertise/haste, which is good on normal hits but doesn't help him much against special attacks. I think the two ways to go is either stamina or mastery enchant/gemming/trinkets. Both of those stats will help the monk survive oneshoting abilities... but do someone know which way is the most efficient (skill point wise) ?

Szeretlek · 11/22/12, 6:50 AM

i am a monk healer in a 25 man guild making our way in the heart of fear (thus not very skilled :-) ). We have monk and paladin tanks, and we struggle to keep our monk alive against blade lord ta yak's Overwhelming Assault .

your tanks shouldnt take damage from Overwhelming assault if they already have debuff from Overwhelming assault.
In 25man you need 3 tanks to rotate tanks.

Blackbull_chogall · 11/22/12, 7:34 AM

Ok, point taken, we'll try with a 3rd tank (we made our first down with two tanks tanking 2 assault each, and we don't have any problem keeping our 650k HP paladin alive).
But my question was more 'general theorycraftig' :

Our Tank has H hitpoints, the boss has a rare powerfull attack that deal D damage after damage reduction CD (such as cocoon, ironbark), with D a little bit higher than H. What would be more efficient, stamina gemming/enchanting until H>D, or mastery gemming/enchanting such that H> D-(staggered amount from mastery improvement).

Even more simply : does a 320 mastery gem provides more staggered damage points from a single 600K dmg attack than the increased hit points provided by a 240 stamina gem ?

Crevan · 11/22/12, 9:55 AM

Originally Posted by Blackbull_chogall

Even more simply : does a 320 mastery gem provides more staggered damage points from a single 600K dmg attack than the increased hit points provided by a 240 stamina gem ?

Numbers incoming.

I have never done any serious tanking theorycrafting before, so if you notice any inaccuracies in my reasoning, do point them out.

One point of raw stamina gives 14 hp. As tanks, we get 35% bonus stamina (5% from leather spec, 10% from Fortitude, 20% from stance). Therefore, a pure stamina gem gives 240 * 14 * 1.35 = 4536 hp.

To get 1% extra stagger, we need 1200 points of mastery. Therefore, a pure mastery gem gives (320 / 1200) * 100% = 0.2(6)% extra stagger (or physical damage reduction).

As a bonus, let's include a mastery/stamina gem here: 2268 hp and 0.1(3)% stagger.

The stagger amount you will have during a fight without any mastery rating is 44% (20% from shuffle, 20% base, 4% base mastery).

Let's assume the boss hits for 500k unmitigated physical damage, and the monk tank has 500k hp. Let's also assume that armour gives about 27% damage reduction. Then, counting the 25% DR from ox stance, the boss will hit us for 500k * 0.75 * 0.73 * 0.56 = 153.3k damage. In this case our effective health is (500k / 153.3k) * 500k = 1630.789k hp.

Let us add 1 stamina gem now. Our hp jumps to 504.536k, and the damage we take does not change. In this case, the effective health is (500k / 153.3k) * 504.536k = 1645.584 hp, which is a 14795 EH bump (for a 14795 / 240 ~= 61.65 EH/stamina)

Now, let's add 1 mastery gem. Stagger amount increases to 44.2(6)% (we take 55.7(3)% of the physical hit), so the fully mitigated hit is 500k * 0.75 * 0.73 * 0.557(3) ~= 152.57k. In this case our effective health is (500k / 152.57k) * 500k = 1638.59k, which is a 7801 EH bump (for a 7801 / 320 ~= 24.38 EH/mastery).

With a mastery/stamina gem, we take 55.8665% of the hit after stagger, so it becomes 500k * 0.75 * 0.73 * 0.558665 = 152.935k, and our EH is (500k / 152.935k) * 502.268k = 1642.096k EH, for a 11307 EH bump.

TL;DR - stamina provides about 90% more EH than mastery per pure gem, or about 153% more EH than mastery per point. Do keep in mind, however, that this is pure theory. Going full-out stamina will allow you to soak more hits, but will also make your healers use more mana. The ideal setup will probably be somewhere in the middle - enough stamina to not get 2-shotted, and enough mastery to reduce spike damage to manageable amounts.

Blackbull_chogall · 11/22/12, 11:01 AM

Many thanks Crevan, that's exactly the info i needed.

md096 · 11/22/12, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Blackbull_chogall

Hi here,
we struggle to keep our monk alive against blade lord ta yak's Overwhelming Assault . Our monk had 450k hp, and Overwhelming Assault does 600k+ dmg.

A properly timed Guard (unglyphed, powered), Dampen Harm, Potion of the Mountains or Fortifying Brew (or even Zen Meditation, but its iffy on timing) should be enough to save your monk alone, couple with Hand of Sacrifice (from your Paladin tank or Holy Paladin if you have one), Life Cocoon or any other healer cooldown and they should be golden. Since the spell is on the boss's cooldown rotation and not on a fixed timer like some boss abilities, your monk just has to learn the timing and get an ability up in advance. The strongest (flexibility) are Potion of the Mountains and Fortyfying Brew in that they can be timed well in advance. An improperly timed Dampen Harm or Guard will be consumed before the hit if used to early. Whatever else, he has to have shuffle up, seems like a no brainer, but cannot let that fall off right before the hit comes in. Also, a fast Purifying Brew after the hit. With a 300k hit (assuming cooldowns) his next tick of stagger will almost certainly be in the high range, so he should be saving an Expel Harm for the hit and use the Chi from it to immediately Purify. That's my process. Hope it helps.

Kovahlam · 11/23/12, 1:57 PM

Question: does t14 brewmaster 4pc work on guard from statue?

Netukka · 11/23/12, 5:10 PM

Originally Posted by Kovahlam

Question: does t14 brewmaster 4pc work on guard from statue?

Got 4 set today and was wondering the same thing. After fast target dummy testing the answer is YES, the 4pc bonus does work for Statue shields too.

Makes the set bonus quite good actually, especially for 10man raids when you can shield a bigger portion of the raid.

Siccore · 11/26/12, 7:51 AM

Originally Posted by Blackbull_chogall

Hi here,

i am a monk healer in a 25 man guild making our way in the heart of fear (thus not very skilled :-) ). We have monk and paladin tanks, and we struggle to keep our monk alive against blade lord ta yak's Overwhelming Assault . Our monk had 450k hp, and Overwhelming Assault does 600k+ dmg. Surely, we will improve CD rotations (tanks and heal) to make him survive, but i'd like to know your advice on monk tank survability against isolated 'truck' attacks, outside of CDs. From the enchant/gemming point of view, our monk follow the way of agi/hit/expertise/haste, which is good on normal hits but doesn't help him much against special attacks. I think the two ways to go is either stamina or mastery enchant/gemming/trinkets. Both of those stats will help the monk survive oneshoting abilities... but do someone know which way is the most efficient (skill point wise) ?

he should always have dumpen harm or FB up to take that second hit. there is no other ways against truck hitting bosses than to know when the hit comes and to pop 1 of 2 CDs. Dodge Trinkets doesn't count. And since that hit is physical, he can try to go all for mastery since that hit isn't avoidable. when i take that second hit with dumpen harm on, my stagger goes red, i brew it away and the other tank takes over.