Brewmaster (Tank) Basic Discussion - Page 8

Taser · 08/15/12, 5:41 AM

I was able to get shuffle to more than 3 minutes in a short test. It does not even drop off if you leave combat. Right now you can stack shuffle before you pull a boss and use your chi for PB and ZS or what else you prefer during the encounter. This will definitely be changed. At least shuffle needs to drop off if you leave combat.

If it goes live like it is right now than this will decrease the value of haste as brewmasters will have about 26 chi per minute at their disposal without the need to use 20 for shuffle. You will be able to use PB each time right after the boss hits you and maybe never taking a stagger-tick. This might even shift our stat priority from haste to mastery as the damage reduction of mastery would be close to 100%.

No other tank has the possibility to stack AM while not tanking enabling you to not need to care about it after you taunt the boss for your stint. IMO this will not go live!

Maikro · 08/15/12, 10:53 AM

I agree, this will not go live, that is way too overpowered.

They will likely (or should anyway) make it so your shuffle buff drops off if you switch stances, or makes the shuffle buff only go activate when Blackout Kicking in Sturdy Ox.

qwas · 08/16/12, 5:48 AM

Anyone noticed we lost Tiger Strikes?
Is this change hurting our Elusive Brew and Gift of the Ox generation?
As far as I know Tiger Strikes worked just like normal melee swings

Taser · 08/16/12, 10:31 AM

Losing Tiger Strikes should not hurt the generation of EB stacks as this was also changed to max 3 stacks per hit. From my calcs this should increase our stack generation by about 8-10% depending on gear (my Brewmaster gained 8.8%)

GotO is indeed being affected. Orbs are being generated on autoattacks with 5.2% and styles with 10%. The additional attacks of Tiger Strikes were counted as autohits in this regard. My Brewmaster went from about 6.4 orbs/minute to about 5.3

Haste and crit got a little boost in value through these changes. But the value of haste depends on how Blizzard thinks of the last change to shuffle. But haste has some kind of diminishing return too. Its value decreases the more you have as you are purifying more frequently and therefore each PB purifies less damage. Apart from optimal shuffle uptime and PB usage there is still the possibility to use Guard and ZS. Depending on the overheal ZS can indeed be valuable as it will heal for more than a PB can purify at some point. The decisions on how to use your chi during an encounter will define how good a brewmaster you are.

Maikro · 08/16/12, 10:34 AM

We did LFR last night as a guild and managed to stack close to 2 minutes worth of Shuffle uptime without stance dancing on Gara'jal. Seems like it might be overpowered, and I would expect them to either lower the duration increase per kick or put some sort of cap on it again.

Venyasure · 08/16/12, 10:57 AM

Losing Tiger Strikes should not hurt the generation of EB stacks as this was also changed to max 3 stacks per hit

The increase to a maximum of 3 stacks is probably just a tooltip modification. It was said in a blue post that very slow weapons could make you gain 3 stacks because of the formula giving the average number of stacks depending on weapon speed. So no, you don't gain more stacks because of this change.

In fact, you do gain less stacks. Tiger Strikes does not only cause additional "yellow" attacks (which cannot result into Elusive Brew stacks), it also increase attack speed by 50% while the buff is active, which increases the overall number of auto attacks, hence the number of stacks you can gain. The loss of Tiger Strikes is definitely a nerf of Elusive Brew.

Taser · 08/16/12, 11:36 AM

I am pretty sure there was a bluepost saying that Tiger Strikes would also be counted as autohits for GotO and EB.

EB is calculated to give 2 stacks at 3.6 speed with 2h. To get 3 you would need a weapon with a speed of 5.4

Venyasure · 08/16/12, 12:05 PM

I am pretty sure there was a bluepost saying that Tiger Strikes would also be counted as autohits for GotO and EB

Yeah, that's correct, i forgot it counted as auto attacks as far as Elusive Brew is concerned.

EB is calculated to give 2 stacks at 3.6 speed with 2h

Yes, but notetheless, i don't think they increased the proc chance by increasing the maximum number of stacks :

Using unusually slow weapons, you can actually get 3 sometimes, but we’re ignoring that for the tooltip

(quote from a blue post dating back to when Elusive Brew was changed to its current effect)

EB stacks are calculated in such a way that with, say a weapon speed of 3.7, you get an average of 3.7/1.8 = 2.06 stacks. This means that the game will make a /rand ; you have a 6% chance to get 3 stacks when you crit, and 94% chance to get 2 stacks. So you just need a weapon speed a little higher than 3.6 in order to have a chance to get 3 stacks.

To get 3 you would need a weapon with a speed of 5.4

Actually, 5.4 is the maximum weapon speed after which you could gain 4 stacks. Such weapons will never exist, so the tooltip does not mention the possibility to gain 4. But maybe they'll come up with a weapon slower than 3.6 in MoP, so it is necessary to adjust the tooltip so that it is made clear you can get 3 stacks with such a weapon.

Taser · 08/16/12, 1:53 PM

Yes, 5.4 would be the breakpoint to 4 stacks. I think we will need some testing to find out if EB was actually changed. The slowest weapon I remember was a 4.0 Mace in BC, if I am not mistaken.

But I know the math behind EB. If it is just a tooltip fix then this will increase the time by about 35% depending on gear.

Damn, i should stop posting from my iPhone.

Tsuki Ko · 08/16/12, 1:59 PM

Originally Posted by Venyasure

EB stacks are calculated in such a way that with, say a weapon speed of 3.7, you get an average of 3.7/1.8 = 2.06 stacks. This means that the game will make a /rand ; you have a 6% chance to get 3 stacks when you crit, and 94% chance to get 2 stacks. So you just need a weapon speed a little higher than 3.6 in order to have a chance to get 3 stacks.

Testing around and observing over 600 stacks gained, I never got less than 3 per crit with a 3.6 2H. I've done that test before the change and I never got more than 2 with equally slow weapons.

imgur: the simple image sharer

Also, testing with 1.6 1Hs and getting no stacks from a crit:

imgur: the simple image sharer

Taser · 08/17/12, 5:45 AM

Originally Posted by Tsuki Ko

Testing around and observing over 600 stacks gained, I never got less than 3 per crit with a 3.6 2H. I've done that test before the change and I never got more than 2 with equally slow weapons.

imgur: the simple image sharer

Also, testing with 1.6 1Hs and getting no stacks from a crit:

imgur: the simple image sharer

Thanks Tsuki. On your screenshot you are getting stacks with your 1.6 1h.

Then we have a slight increase in the generation of EB stacks.

Venyasure · 08/17/12, 7:41 AM

Then we have a slight increase in the generation of EB stacks

It seems Tsuki is right, and i was wrong. The last beta build is not just a tooltip modification, it's actually an increase in the proc chance of Elusive Brew. For a 2H, it seems the average number of stacks is now WeaponSpeed/1.2, up from WeaponSpeed/1.8. The average for 1H should therefore be WeaponSpeed/1.73, up from WeaponSpeed/2.6

By the way, i'm increasingly concerned with the optimal enchants. We have an agi proc, a dodge proc, and a shield proc. I don't know their ppm. And i don't know whether the shield proc scales with anything. I wonder, would a double enchant (like agi proc + shield proc) make 2*1H clearly ahead of 2H ? Which enchants are better, and in which situation ? Do they all have the same ppm ? Will a second agi proc stack with a first one or just refresh its duration ?

Tsuki Ko · 08/17/12, 9:47 AM

I've done more EB tests (under 8/17) with different weapon setups, it's consistent with your formulas. But on a fresh lv85 monk I'm not getting the same amounts with similar weapon speeds; I rarely get 3 stacks with a 3.6 weapon, for example. Any idea of what could be causing it?

On enchants, I don't have access to Dancing Steel but looking at recent logs from someone DWing and with DS on each weapon it seems they have separate procs and doesn't seem to have an iCD. You can see two buffs at once while also seeing it being refreshed sometimes.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Mackeyser · 08/18/12, 10:42 PM

Even if the enchants for dual wielding outweigh a 2h, would that outweigh the significant stat allocation that would be required to cover the significantly higher hit/exp requirements for dual wielding? 2h hit/exp cap (dodge cap for exp) is 7.5%. I'm not sure what the dual wield cap is.

That said, the penalties to chi regen, initial threat and ability to use Active mitigation abilities that use Chi all rely on whether the Brewmaster actually hits the target(s). There's no Death Strike like compromise to allow Chi on misses. I believe it was Venyasure that posted the numbers showing that our initial stat allocation was Agi/Hit/Exp/Haste/Parry/Dodge/Crit/Mastery with Hit/Exp being pretty close to Agi (meaning within 20%). Hit/Exp is really important for AM tanks and we already need a fair bit as 2h wielders. Based on the gear I've seen and what others have posted, we can cover the 7.5% hit table, but we'll need to be smart about it.

In light of all that, is dual wielding viable?

Is dual wielding more of an OT situation? If Dual wielding is viable, does a dual wielder have different stat weights to overcome the fact that Chi generators like KS and Jab will miss?

Kwaniah · 08/18/12, 11:07 PM

Specials require 7.5% hit whether you are dual wielding or not. The only difference is your offhand white swings, which requires 26.5%. So in other words, KS and Jab would not have an increased chance to miss. Just your white swings with your offhand, which would affect EB generation, but probably not enough to discredit DWing.