Windwalker (DPS): a flurry of tender fisting. - Page 10

Jezz · 10/02/12, 4:46 PM

Originally Posted by tastysnack

Going to have to agree here. Weaving it into my rotation feels absolutely clunky and awkward. Also, I've found that even if I save my stacks through trash/add phases, burst is still very questionable - even using energy CD and Xuen.

I assumed it would be quite generous with range too considering you have to stand still but it seems to be strictly melee range making it pretty damn dangerous to use on any boss that moves or where you have to move. I don't really see a place for it currently, I'm not sure why they didn't just limit it to 3 targets and increase the damage to make it a cleave cooldown.

Szeretlek · 10/02/12, 6:10 PM

About Zen Meditation. I only remember Arcanetron (Omnitron Defense) with his Arcane Blast spam or something.
What DIRECT spells do you remember in Dragon Soul? Hagara maybe, but that Ice Lances spam just consume that 5 charges in 2 volleys.

It is VERY odd save. I think its more PvP, then PvE.

tastysnack · 10/02/12, 6:16 PM

Originally Posted by Szeretlek

About Zen Meditation. I only remember Arcanetron (Omnitron Defense) with his Arcane Blast spam or something.
What DIRECT spells do you remember in Dragon Soul? Hagara maybe, but that Ice Lances spam just consume that 5 charges in 2 volleys.

It is VERY odd save. I think its more PvP, then PvE.

Think any time that healers were using their CDs - for example, final platform on Madness, where there is no real save other than CDs when the meteor hits. Though, I guess I need to read spell text again (can't - at work) - is it simply direct damage? If so, then yah - that's pretty useless, going off of what I recall from previous tiers.

Originally Posted by Jezz

I assumed it would be quite generous with range too considering you have to stand still but it seems to be strictly melee range making it pretty damn dangerous to use on any boss that moves or where you have to move. I don't really see a place for it currently, I'm not sure why they didn't just limit it to 3 targets and increase the damage to make it a cleave cooldown.

You hit the nail on the head on why it's been really hard to fit into a DPS rotation. For multi-target fights with movement (which are basically every fight ever with adds), Spinning Crane Kick is more useful (especially when glyphed for full movement speed). Burn phases aside, of course.

Jezz · 10/02/12, 6:20 PM

Originally Posted by Szeretlek

About Zen Meditation. I only remember Arcanetron (Omnitron Defense) with his Arcane Blast spam or something.
What DIRECT spells do you remember in Dragon Soul? Hagara maybe, but that Ice Lances spam just consume that 5 charges in 2 volleys.

It is VERY odd save. I think its more PvP, then PvE.

I just think of it as a dispersion with double the cooldown, that requires a major glyph to use it while moving and that isn't usable against melee attacks.

LightforgedUS · 10/03/12, 10:57 AM

Was anyone able to test the 4 set bonus? I'm unsure if it just increases the duration or if it actually keeps the 10/sec regen gain (for a grand total of 110 energy over 11 seconds). If it just increases the duration (therefore decreasing the amount of energy per second), there are a lot of possibilities. That could solve our energy issues (both too much and too little).

Venyasure · 10/03/12, 11:41 AM

Hi guys !

I've added an AOE option to the Windwalker spreadsheet, similar to the one for Brewmasters :

http://www.filedropper.com/windwalkergearcopy_2

Bug Fixes :

- Expel Harm didn't cost the appropriate amount of energy (yeah, i haven't updated this spreadsheet for a while).

AOE option :

Enter the number of targets, and fill the "SCK use" cell. The number in this cell represents the proportion of Spinning Crane Kicks / JAb you're doing. A value of 0.7 means you do 7 SCK for (10-7) = 3 Jabs. Normally you should put 1 in this cell, since it's pretty easy for a Windwalker to maximise the use of SCK.

Remember to decrease the "EH use" cell if you are aoeing : obviously you don't want to use it instead of SCK. Well, you can if you want, the spreadsheet can make the calculation, but you'll see your dps decrease. You also need to decrease the "FoF use" cell : SCK simply doesn't generate enough Chi to use FoF every 25 seconds. The "maxi" cell on the right indicates the maximum value you can put in the "FoF use" cell so that you don't spend more Chi on it than possible.

Remarks :

- You need more than 6481 mastery (3481 + mastery raid buff) for Expel Harm to deal less damage on average than Jab plus its procs. But Jab is helpful for refreshing Tiger Power via a Mastery Proc, thus spending less Chi on Tiger Palm. This results into a breakpoint inferior to 6481. Now that i've corrected the EH energy cost bug, the breakpoint is around 5000 mastery (2000 + 3000 raid buff). Its precise value depends on haste, hit and expertise. If you're above 2000 mastery and if you have the mastery buff, you shouldn't be using EH, except of course if you want to delay the use of a mastery proc. But for now, with the amount of mastery on the 463 gear, EH is clearly ahead of Jab.

- With a 463ish ilvl, it seems agi is twice better than haste (SimCraft apparently confirms it). It was not the case in the previous speadsheet i uploaded, because the ilvl of this spreadsheet was very high, it had 509 weapons and a lot of agi. Only with a very good gear (raid gear with a few heroic items) will gemming haste be better than agi.

- Haste is an excellent AOE stat, and agi is not twice better in an AOE situation, even with a 463 ilvl.

Saltycracker · 10/03/12, 4:33 PM

Thanks for they update Venya. I'm finding lots of opportunities to use Touch of Karma in raids. Ballparking it at about 400,000 damage per use (w/ health modifiers and boss damage modifiers); roughly adding 4500 DPS. 5 Man heroics not so much as nobody really takes any meaningful damage.

Would this be a pain to add to the spreadsheet?

Professor Hurt · 10/03/12, 8:42 PM

Originally Posted by Venyasure

- With a 463ish ilvl, it seems haste is not twice better than agi (SimCraft apparently confirms it). It was not the case in the previous speadsheet i uploaded, because the ilvl of this spreadsheet was very high, it had 509 weapons and a lot of agi. Only with a very good gear (raid gear with a few heroic items) will gemming haste be better than agi.

- Haste is an excellent AOE stat, and agi is not twice better in an AOE situation, even with a 463 ilvl.

Could you please expand on this a bit more? The way it's worded, it seems like you're expecting haste to have to be twice as good as agility in order to be gem-worthy. Isn't it the opposite?

Example:

Secondary stats are doubled on gems. This means that if agility is valued at 1 and haste is valued at 1, a straight haste gem would be worth twice as much as a straight agility gem of the same tier. If agility is valued at 1 and haste is valued at .5, the gems are of equal value. Therefore, "agility has to be worth twice haste in order to be a better gem value".

Does this change your findings in any way?

Venyasure · 10/04/12, 5:56 AM

Originally Posted by Saltycracker

Would this be a pain to add to the spreadsheet?

No, it wouldn't, but i think it's a very situational cooldown that cannot be used at its maximum efficiency all the time. And do you really want to have a stat weight for stamina anyway ? I could an option for it in a future spreadsheet, but it would be very odd. It's a bit like including Touch of Death, or Crackling Jade Lightning for bosses with moments when you can't be in melee range.

The way it's worded, it seems like you're expecting haste to have to be twice as good as agility in order to be gem-worthy. Isn't it the opposite?

Hum, yeah, i mixed up agi and haste. I meant agi is twice better than haste. I modify my message right now.

Eeinx · 10/04/12, 11:09 AM

Someone mistakingly ninja added a change that FoF unable to scale with haste for some weird reason before 505-1 was released. Its still showing haste as better than crit, but at different values.

For you guys, I've built a version with the fix to FoF. Have at it

I simmed Agi 2.32 - haste 0.96

Download simc.zip from Sendspace.com - send big files the easy way

tastysnack · 10/04/12, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by Venyasure

No, it wouldn't, but i think it's a very situational cooldown that cannot be used at its maximum efficiency all the time. And do you really want to have a stat weight for stamina anyway ? I could an option for it in a future spreadsheet, but it would be very odd. It's a bit like including Touch of Death, or Crackling Jade Lightning for bosses with moments when you can't be in melee range.

Great job on the spreadsheet overall, and I agree that it's just a bit too situational to include any of those.

Originally Posted by Venyasure

Hum, yeah, i mixed up agi and haste. I meant agi is twice better than haste. I modify my message right now.

Yah, I was going to question this as well - interesting to me that haste will eventually become the better stat (typically it has an effective breakpoint in the classes I've previously played) but - especially in AOE situations - I can see where it'll be useful.

Great job on the spreadsheet overall. I'll look at it more in-depth tonight if I can - I don't think I'll get a chance to prior to killing Internet Dragons, though. Too bad World of Logs went down last night prior to our raid - it's nice to be able to see some real numbers for a change. I did notice that the Windwalker we brought (I was Brewmaster) appeared to sustain much higher numbers on Stone Guards than SimCraft had suggested they would, and without utilizing FoF. I myself smacked a dummy around and tried it without FoF - and found that my DPS increased, albeit negligibly. Just something I thought I'd comment on, simply because FoF is too clunky for a rotation, and the way Stone Guards were tanked made it fairly close to a Patchwerk-esque fight with dual bosses for everyone other than the tanks.

Eeinx · 10/04/12, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by tastysnack

I did notice that the Windwalker we brought (I was Brewmaster) appeared to sustain much higher numbers on Stone Guards than SimCraft had suggested they would, and without utilizing FoF.

The difference of not using FoF is currently marginal, but may get wider when higher haste is achieved

Edit: Although, there may never be a good time to use it at high haste.

Statistically around 6600ish haste, crit overtakes haste in priority

Please also keep in mind, that SimC shows an average of iterations, so potential DPS can definitely be higher. Unless you are talking about being higher than max deviation, then thats a problem I'd like to look into.

Venyasure · 10/04/12, 11:33 AM

By the way, this spreadsheet considers that a missed BoK/RSK/TP does not refund the Chi, just like in the last beta patch. A couple of days ago, the devs fixed a bug with BoK mastery procs :

Missing with Blackout Kick after the Mastery: Combo Breaker activates will no longer grant two free Chi.

And since this modification, a missed or dodged BoK/TP/RSK now refunds Chi. I'm quite sure it used to consume the Chi. And that's the way it's implemented in the spreadsheet, which makes hit/expertise far higher than it currently is in game.

I get the feeling the devs changed their minds (or released buggy game versions ?) several times about whether or not these spells should refund Chi when missed. Well, what i mean is that i'm a bit confused with the way i should handle misses and dodges in the spreadsheet, since Chi costs in game seem unclear nowadays.

Eeinx · 10/04/12, 12:00 PM

I also heard a rumor that Combo Breaker: TP doesn't add towards tigerseye brew, but CB: BoK does. I know this isn't intended.

Jezz · 10/04/12, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Eeinx

I also heard a rumor that Combo Breaker: TP doesn't add towards tigerseye brew, but CB: BoK does. I know this isn't intended.

I just tested this and you're correct, it works like you have stated.