Windwalker (DPS): a flurry of tender fisting. - Page 11

Eeinx · 10/04/12, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by Jezz

I just tested this and you're correct, it works like you have stated.

I'll update the sim soon to reflect that and also ensure there is a bug report. Thanks for the testing.

Saltycracker · 10/04/12, 3:28 PM

After faceplanting several times goofing around with Touch of Karma, I've found this spell better used as a damage reduction cooldown than a DPS ability, unless used under carefully controlled situations.

Good places to use it:
Stone Guard - Amethyst Pools, Cobalt Mines
Feng – Epiccenter, Draw Flame, Arcane Velocity
Garjal – Voodoo Doll, Sub 20%
Spirit Kings – Flanking Orders, Some of Volley
Elegon – Total Annihilation, Sub 50%

Bad Places to use it:
Stone Guard – Jasper Chains (You probly will kill the other person)
Feng – Standing in Fire Patches too long
Garjal – ?
Spirit Kings – Flanking Orders, Some of Volley
Elegon – Core Pillar fire

I’m making my raid leaders hate me a lot, normal modes seems like the time to test this skill out.

tastysnack · 10/04/12, 5:00 PM

Originally Posted by Saltycracker

After faceplanting several times goofing around with Touch of Karma, I've found this spell better used as a damage reduction cooldown than a DPS ability, unless used under carefully controlled situations.

Good places to use it:
Stone Guard - Amethyst Pools, Cobalt Mines
Feng – Epiccenter, Draw Flame, Arcane Velocity
Garjal – Voodoo Doll, Sub 20%
Spirit Kings – Flanking Orders, Some of Volley
Elegon – Total Annihilation, Sub 50%

Bad Places to use it:
Stone Guard – Jasper Chains (You probly will kill the other person)
Feng – Standing in Fire Patches too long
Garjal – ?
Spirit Kings – Flanking Orders, Some of Volley
Elegon – Core Pillar fire

I’m making my raid leaders hate me a lot, normal modes seems like the time to test this skill out.

Oh, it's okay - mine were pretty annoyed when I kept respecing every few minutes last night to "try something out". It comes with the territory of having a new class.

It's definitely situational, and its text reads that it's intended to be more for survival - say, if your tank dies and you have to have the boss on you for a few seconds (rare, but happens - and it seems there are a lot of added mechanics similar to this for other classes (i.e., warlock "tanking"). However, some of the situations you described are almost completely avoidable (Stone Guard incidents, for example).

I wouldn't honestly overthink the ability too much. Blizzard wanted to add more survivability to classes, and one way they did this was via 1-minute cooldowns that increase DPS and survivability (to some extent) and self-heals such as EH.

Originally Posted by Eeinx

The difference of not using FoF is currently marginal, but may get wider when higher haste is achieved

Edit: Although, there may never be a good time to use it at high haste.

Statistically around 6600ish haste, crit overtakes haste in priority

Please also keep in mind, that SimC shows an average of iterations, so potential DPS can definitely be higher. Unless you are talking about being higher than max deviation, then thats a problem I'd like to look into.

You're absolutely correct as far as SimC, and not ever really being a good time to use it. I did find it useful on trash that could be stunned, but not in a raid situation.

Littch · 10/05/12, 11:59 AM

Can anybody post up a trinket list in terms of best to worst. With the amount dps increase each trinket is worth. Been thinking Windswept Pages is far better than the Direbrew Crit/AP proc trinket but not sure. my idea is to run WP + RoX.

Eyedore · 10/05/12, 8:58 PM

Funny you ask this, I was just about to post a trinket list

First of all: this is my first post here and I don't consider myself a theorycrafter. So do not blindly accept these values, it is probably still best to wait for a real theorycrafter to make a proper trinket list.

How I came to my values:
I simmed the simc 505-4 ilvl 496 monk (dual wielding) on a patchwerk fight.
With the stat weights I got from my sim I manualy calculated each trinket, using the icd that I could find in comments on wowhead (some of which said they were confirmed by ghostcrawler).

trinket	from	description	icd	proc%	procs every	score
[Bottle of Infinite Stars]	heroic	mastery, agility proc	45	15	48.34	5614
[Terror in the Mists]	heroic	agility, crit proc	105	15	108.34	5520
[Bottle of Infinite Stars]	normal	mastery, agility proc	45	15	48.34	4973
[Relic of Xuen]	darkmoon card	agility, agility proc	55	20	63.06	4963
[Terror in the Mists]	normal	agility, crit proc	105	15	108.34	4892
[Arrowflight Medallion]*	5.1 rep	agility, crit use	60	-	-	4515
[Bottle of Infinite Stars]	lfr	mastery, agility proc	45	15	48.34	4404
[Terror in the Mists]	lfr	agility, crit proc	105	15	108.34	4335
[Hawkmaster's Talon]	valor points	agility, haste use	60	-	-	4328
[Jade Bandit Figurine]	normal	agility, haste use	60	-	-	4328
[Zen Alchemist Stone]	alch	mastery, agility proc	55	25	56.41	3884
[Searing Words]	dungeon	crit, agility proc	85	45	88.86	3864
[Windswept Pages]	dungeon	agility, haste proc	65	15	68.34	3768
[Flashing Steel Talisman]	dungeon	hit, agility use	90	-	-	3170
[Coren's Cold Chromium Coaster]	brewfest	crit, AP proc	45	10	61.13	2975

* Will probably be added in patch 5.1, still subject to change

Again, these are rough calculations so if you want to be sure wait for a real theorycrafter to give you a list.

I used the following stat weights:
agi: 2.92
hit: 1.31
exp: 1.31
haste: 1.31
ap: 1.04
crit: 1.20
mastery: 0.79
I used the haste weight for hit and expertise because we have enough gear to get 7.5% hit and exp with reforging

I calculated the time to proc for each trinket this way: I simmed the ilvl 496 dw monk profile and calculated the average amount of hits or crits per second.
Any hit trinkets (including FoF and BoK dot): 2.764 hits/sec
- alchemy trinket
direct hit trinkets (FoF only 1st tick, no BoK dot): 1.898 hits/sec
- terror, bottle and windswept pages
Any crit trinkets (including FoF): 0.824 crits/sec
- xuen, coren's
Direct crit trinkets (FoF only 1st tick): 0.747 crits/sec
- searing words

*** edit: updated for simc 505-4 ***

Littch · 10/06/12, 1:44 AM

Thanks man! this has put my mind at rest for now. Until chardev is updated at least.
On another note, do you think our 4 piece tier is actually worth while? i mean 2 piece definite, 5 seconds off something that is really good if you can use it properly is a no brainer. but a longer time on our energy regeneration? i find most of the time the energy isn't that much of a problem. So when we hit the 6.6k haste point will it even be worthwhile? presuming we can hit 6.6k haste in the 1st tier

Crevan · 10/07/12, 6:50 AM

Originally Posted by Littch

i mean 2 piece definite, 5 seconds off something that is really good if you can use it properly is a no brainer.

You're not quite right here. The windwalker 2 piece bonus is probably the worst dps set bonus this game has ever seen. We're talking about less than 1% potential dps boost if you manage to use FoF optimally. The four-piece isn't simming much better, at least in pre-raiding gear. The best I could squeeze out of it was 1.8% gain with about ilvl467 gear and FoF disabled in simc profile.

Littch · 10/07/12, 12:24 PM

So FoF is not a dps increase?

gahddo · 10/07/12, 1:17 PM

FoF is a sizable gain. Roughly 3.4% with 2pc. Simply dismissing it is a very very bad idea. That being said, if you lose ONE tick of it to early canceling because of movement its a loss. So simply put, don't use it if you have to do anything else during the channel <.<.

saboya · 10/07/12, 1:30 PM

It's not that 2pc is not an increase, it's that often you can't fit a FoF because it clashes with RsK or have too much energy or the boss is moving/you have to move that you would delay FoF anyway, so unless you use it on cooldown (virtually impossible), it's not a good bonus. It should be a DPS increase, but the sims will not show the actual gain you will have, it's gonna be overvalued.

opinel · 10/07/12, 1:49 PM

Eyedore, why do I see a difference in the scores of Hawkmaster's Talon and Jade Bandit Figurine ? They're the same trinkets, so ?
Also, when calculating the score of the Zen Alchemist Stone, did you use the proc value from wowhead (4561 agi) or ingame (4041) ?

Thanks for the effort you put into that list.

Masq · 10/07/12, 5:43 PM

removed

shinwa · 10/07/12, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by Eyedore

I'm pretty sure the internal cd on this is actually 55 secs, but don't quote me on it

Eyedore · 10/08/12, 4:57 AM

Originally Posted by opinel

Eyedore, why do I see a difference in the scores of Hawkmaster's Talon and Jade Bandit Figurine ? They're the same trinkets, so ?
Also, when calculating the score of the Zen Alchemist Stone, did you use the proc value from wowhead (4561 agi) or ingame (4041)

Thanks for pointing this out to me, did some training dummie testing and the proc is indeed 4041, I changed the trinket order accordingly.

Ingame the [Hawkmaster's Talon] tooltip says it procs 3595 haste. The problem is I can't find the [Jade Bandit Figurine] ingame, so the only information I have is from wowhead, which says it procs 2822 haste. I'm wondering now if this trinket actually made it past beta, as it is not in the dungeon journal either.

Originally Posted by shinwa

I'm pretty sure the internal cd on this is actually 55 secs, but don't quote me on it

As I said in my original post I added 5 seconds to the icd to allow the user to crit or hit enough so it can proc again. Do note that this list could be better if I would actually calculate what the average time is before you would hit or crit, so I can determine more precisely how often a triket will proc. Right now I just added 5 seconds for all of them.

shinwa · 10/08/12, 8:59 AM

Originally Posted by Eyedore

Thanks for pointing this out to me, did some training dummie testing and the proc is indeed 4041, I changed the trinket order accordingly.

Ingame the [Hawkmaster's Talon] tooltip says it procs 3595 haste. The problem is I can't find the [Jade Bandit Figurine] ingame, so the only information I have is from wowhead, which says it procs 2822 haste. I'm wondering now if this trinket actually made it past beta, as it is not in the dungeon journal either.

We dropped the strength one yesterday, so i'm pretty sure this one is in there too