Windwalker (DPS): a flurry of tender fisting. - Page 13

LightforgedUS · 10/11/12, 7:15 AM

Originally Posted by fr0d0b0ls0n

I was wondering if there is any way to easily compare 2 hands with dual handed weapons. 2 hands are pretty easy to get (we only share with feral druids), so in progress content is a thing to consider. What itemlevel is enough to compensate the dps loss from a 2 hand?

For example, the normal mode polearm can give you more dps than the 376 one handers from the LFR?

** My interpretations of Sim Data and opinion **

I've been doing lots of Simcraft recently. Using their BiS T14 Monk 2h profile, it's a few thousand DPS Loss at that level - which says to me that the way things are currently balanced, we're looking at an itemlevel tier or higher (norm dung to heroic dung, heroic dung to lfr, etc) 2Hander to offset the dps difference.

As always, this is Sim data, take it with a grain of salt. That's my interpretation of Sims I've seen; feel free to give a second opinion.

Crevan · 10/11/12, 8:25 AM

To provide some numbers with what Lightforged said, here are a few examples with current gear levels.

Using my character with current ilvl of 469 dual-wielding blue 463 weapons as baseline I got the following:

DW ilvl463 - 64900 dps, 100%
2H ilvl463 - 62935 dps, 96.97%
2H ilvl476 - 65825 dps, 101.43%

So, with equal tier weapons, DW is ~3% ahead of 2H. Going one tier above with 2H will net you a <1.5% dps boost. This seems to match what others have discussed here and elsewhere.

So, with equal-tier weapons, DW is better; a 2H 13 ilvls above will beat DW by a small margin.

PS It's also worth investigating mixed-tier DW against 2h, for example 476+463 DW against 476 2H, but I suspect it will be very close in terms of numbers.

Eyedore · 10/11/12, 12:13 PM

I simmed my character (but with best enchants) with different weapons:

dps outcome;

[Ghostheart]	dungeon	66,809
[Siege-Captain's Scimitar] (x2)	dungeon	69,467
[Screaming Tiger, Qiang's Unbreakable Polearm]	raid finder	71,300
[Gara'kal, Fist of the Spiritbinder] (x2)	raid finder	73,867
[Screaming Tiger, Qiang's Unbreakable Polearm]	normal	76,547
[Gara'kal, Fist of the Spiritbinder] (x2)	normal	79,035

So it looks like you can best switch to a two-hander if you have one with a higher itemlevel than your one-handers.
Do note that it is just a sim, and I used my own character's gear.

edit: just saw the two posts above me (they were made during this post) and my data more or less confirms what they say

• promdates · 10/11/12, 2:05 PM

Originally Posted by Eyedore

I simmed my character (but with best enchants) with different weapons:

dps outcome;

[Ghostheart]	dungeon	66,809
[Siege-Captain's Scimitar] (x2)	dungeon	69,467
[Screaming Tiger, Qiang's Unbreakable Polearm]	raid finder	71,300
[Gara'kal, Fist of the Spiritbinder] (x2)	raid finder	73,867
[Screaming Tiger, Qiang's Unbreakable Polearm]	normal	76,547
[Gara'kal, Fist of the Spiritbinder] (x2)	normal	79,035

So it looks like you can best switch to a two-hander if you have one with a higher itemlevel than your one-handers.
Do note that it is just a sim, and I used my own character's gear.

edit: just saw the two posts above me (they were made during this post) and my data more or less confirms what they say

The damage percentage difference between those three sims are 3.83% for the dungeon, 3.48% for RF, and 3.15% for normal. Perhaps at some point, the damage actually gets close enough to not matter?

On a 10 minute fight (600 seconds), the damage difference is the following:

66,809 vs 69,467 = 1,594,800 damage
71,300 vs 73,867 = 1,540,200 damage
76,547 vs 79,035 = 1,492,800 damage

Iroared · 10/11/12, 2:28 PM

It should be interesting to compare the two presets without weapon enchants. In theory, dual wielding should push ahead because of dual windsong (or dancing steel once we get there), even though 2h has a tiny bit more stats.
That said, it looks like we're extremely dependant on weapons (duh), and being stuck with 463 is a much bigger problem for us than for any other class.

Professor Hurt · 10/11/12, 4:03 PM

Originally Posted by Mihir

I added that because it doesn't scale with haste (and put it back in earlier today).

(unless you consider clipping the last tick "scaling with haste")

If this is the case, and if it's true that missing one tick of FoF makes it an overall DPS loss, does that mean we want to ignore FoF when a certain haste value is reached? I'm thinking in scenarios where we have Bloodlust + trinket proc(s)...

Iroared · 10/11/12, 4:12 PM

I'm sure it is a dps loss if you energy cap while casting it, so I avoid using it during bloodlust, when it's not too hard to cap even without FoF if you get a few back-to-back mastery procs.

saboya · 10/11/12, 6:55 PM

Originally Posted by Professor Hurt

If this is the case, and if it's true that missing one tick of FoF makes it an overall DPS loss, does that mean we want to ignore FoF when a certain haste value is reached? I'm thinking in scenarios where we have Bloodlust + trinket proc(s)...

FoF cast time is affected by haste. FoF will only be a DPS loss if you either energy cap during it or delay a stronger ability (RsK). FoF doesn't scale with haste in the sense that it doesn't get better with more haste. You don't get more ticks or increase damage, but the ticks are faster so they scale with your energy regen.

Professor Hurt · 10/11/12, 7:54 PM

Originally Posted by saboya

FoF cast time is affected by haste. FoF will only be a DPS loss if you either energy cap during it or delay a stronger ability (RsK). FoF doesn't scale with haste in the sense that it doesn't get better with more haste. You don't get more ticks or increase damage, but the ticks are faster so they scale with your energy regen.

I think you both are missing the point (or I am... ). My interpretation of what Mihir said was that FoF channel time scales with haste, but the damage tick portion does not. That means that at haste value X, the channel time will be fast enough that it will clip off the final tick of damage. In other words, instead of FoF doing N ticks of damage, it will do N-1.

Is my interpretation of what was said correct? If so, finding X would be useful.

Bloodvalor · 10/12/12, 3:52 AM

What is our current stat weight? From what I've read on here it appears to be:

Agi
Hit & Exp
Haste
Crit
Mastery

Is this correct? If it isn't, and or if we don't have sufficient data yet to make an accurate stat weight, how would someone go about contributing to help figure this out?

Iroared · 10/12/12, 4:02 AM

I think you both are missing the point (or I am... ). My interpretation of what Mihir said was that FoF channel time scales with haste, but the damage tick portion does not. That means that at haste value X, the channel time will be fast enough that it will clip off the final tick of damage. In other words, instead of FoF doing N ticks of damage, it will do N-1.

Is my interpretation of what was said correct? If so, finding X would be useful.

Actually, looking at logs, it seems that FoF always does 4 hits. I don't see why it would clip anything as long as tick frequency scales at the same rate as channel duration (which makes sense).

What is our current stat weight? From what I've read on here it appears to be:

Agi
Hit & Exp
Haste
Crit
Mastery

Is this correct? If it isn't, and or if we don't have sufficient data yet to make an accurate stat weight, how would someone go about contributing to help figure this out?

Yes, this is the current priority according to simcraft. It is also worth noting that agility is currently quite a bit higher than 2x secondary stats, so you should always try to gem for it (though matching sockets is still preferrable).

Eyedore · 10/12/12, 9:57 AM

Originally Posted by Bloodvalor

What is our current stat weight? From what I've read on here it appears to be:

Agi
Hit & Exp
Haste
Crit
Mastery

Do note that haste and crit are almost the same when you have a 2-hander.
To keep it simple: try to avoid mastery on gear, and you are fine

keithioapc · 10/12/12, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by Iroared

Actually, looking at logs, it seems that FoF always does 4 hits. I don't see why it would clip anything as long as tick frequency scales at the same rate as channel duration (which makes sense).

One thing I've noticed about it by looking at logs is that it seldom hits (ticks) 5 times like it "should". For instance on my Feng kill last night I used it 13 times and it hit 50 times. That's less than 4 hits per use. Looking at other logs this problem appears to be universal rather than personal.

At first I thought it was just a clipping error, so I used [nochanneling] macros to ensure that it would not be clipped.

However, what I found (on target dummy) was that even when I used a [nochanneling] macro I clipped the 5th hit. That really confused me because I never had that problem in the past with similar abilities (such as Arcane Missiles).

However, if you go to a dummy and use FoF and be sure to wait, it will indeed tick 5 times.

Also, one thing I did not test but am worried about is spell pushback. Will raid damage cause us to lose a tick?

Long story short, if you use FoF I think you should check how many times you are hitting with it. You may be doing 20% less damage with it than you should be.

Jezz · 10/12/12, 3:17 PM

Do we have any information about racials? Undead seems pretty strong but I can't seem to find any math on it.

Littch · 10/12/12, 4:09 PM

As far as i knew. it was Orcs if using axe/fist, if not then Trolls for best. below that not sure, don't understand why undead would be better though, i mean its been a while since i checked undead racials but they dont have anything useful in pve?

edit - did not see the racial change. none the less, depends on its proc rate. also if its quite a bit ahead too its guna get nerfed, much like the 1% damage Worgens had at the start