Windwalker (DPS): a flurry of tender fisting. - Page 14

Jezz · 10/12/12, 4:25 PM

Originally Posted by Littch

As far as i knew. it was Orcs if using axe/fist, if not then Trolls for best. below that not sure, don't understand why undead would be better though, i mean its been a while since i checked undead racials but they dont have anything useful in pve?

edit - did not see the racial change. none the less, depends on its proc rate

From what I've heard, at least for a rogue, it procs almost instantly as soon as the 15 second ICD is up. Over 10 minutes on a dummy it did 2.3% of the rogue's total damage.

• promdates · 10/12/12, 4:38 PM

Pretty much every 1h weapon in the first raid tier is either an Axe or Fist Weapon.

Iroared · 10/15/12, 4:04 AM

However, what I found (on target dummy) was that even when I used a [nochanneling] macro I clipped the 5th hit. That really confused me because I never had that problem in the past with similar abilities (such as Arcane Missiles).

However, if you go to a dummy and use FoF and be sure to wait, it will indeed tick 5 times.

Wait, you're saying that it will tick 5 times on a dummy if you wait, yet you clipped 5th hit with nochanneling macro? Does that mean using any other ability will make you lose the last tick even if its macro'd with nochanneling?

I doubt it has a pushback, at least from the times I've used it I didn't notice the castbar skip at all. Could it be haste as others suggested?

Saltycracker · 10/15/12, 11:37 AM

When I'm soloing dailies, I'll pull huge groups. Using Chi Wave usually keeps me alive very well, and does some decent damage as well.

I'll take a shot at mathing it out, but would Chi-Wave technically take a higher rotation priority than BOK in raids, since it is doing some decent raid healing, and if it is bouncing properly, it should be coming out as a higher damage spell than one BOK.

Thoughts?

Jezz · 10/15/12, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Saltycracker

When I'm soloing dailies, I'll pull huge groups. Using Chi Wave usually keeps me alive very well, and does some decent damage as well.

I'll take a shot at mathing it out, but would Chi-Wave technically take a higher rotation priority than BOK in raids, since it is doing some decent raid healing, and if it is bouncing properly, it should be coming out as a higher damage spell than one BOK.

Thoughts?

While it may be worth thinking about on a very healing intensive fight, I don't see how it would ever come out ahead of BOK in-terms of pure damage.

dgkiller · 10/15/12, 1:05 PM

Originally Posted by Saltycracker

When I'm soloing dailies, I'll pull huge groups. Using Chi Wave usually keeps me alive very well, and does some decent damage as well.

I'll take a shot at mathing it out, but would Chi-Wave technically take a higher rotation priority than BOK in raids, since it is doing some decent raid healing, and if it is bouncing properly, it should be coming out as a higher damage spell than one BOK.

Thoughts?

I did Feng(10man) and on an attempt I decided to use it on cooldown to see how much healing I would do, it ended up doing 8.5k effective healing per second, but at the cost of losing a decent amount of dps. I would say on healing intensive fights where dps is not an issue then it might be worth doing.

Saltycracker · 10/15/12, 1:32 PM

Originally Posted by Jezz

While it may be worth thinking about on a very healing intensive fight, I don't see how it would ever come out ahead of BOK in-terms of pure damage.

Agreed, but I would think alternating Chi Wave and BOK would be fine as long as you are keeping your BOK dot up on the boss. Also, it ignores armor, so that might push it over BOK. If I get some time, I'll try it out some math. Thanks.

Moozhe · 10/15/12, 4:22 PM

Originally Posted by Saltycracker

Agreed, but I would think alternating Chi Wave and BOK would be fine as long as you are keeping your BOK dot up on the boss. Also, it ignores armor, so that might push it over BOK. If I get some time, I'll try it out some math. Thanks.

I am not sure there is any advantage to "keeping your BOK dot up". The dot "rolls" damage together so using BOK twice in a row should never waste damage. It should always do the same amount of damage.

Saltycracker · 10/15/12, 5:49 PM

Originally Posted by Moozhe

I am not sure there is any advantage to "keeping your BOK dot up". The dot "rolls" damage together so using BOK twice in a row should never waste damage. It should always do the same amount of damage.

Looking closer at the DoT, it only lasts for 4 sec, so the only time you would run into this issue would be if you had a BOK:CB procced and used a Chi-Wave in between kicks, otherwise you wouldnt have enough chi. Regardless, the DoT gets rolled into itself.

So the question becomes, is the CW a dps loss vs a BOK + the dot. My guess is yes. Thanks for bearing with my braindroppings. I'll check later to see if this is really the case.

Eyedore · 10/15/12, 7:10 PM

Originally Posted by keithioapc

One thing I've noticed about it by looking at logs is that it seldom hits (ticks) 5 times like it "should". For instance on my Feng kill last night I used it 13 times and it hit 50 times. That's less than 4 hits per use. Looking at other logs this problem appears to be universal rather than personal.

When checking my own logs I also noticed that I never have the full 5 hits. It is always four or less, of course in the case it's less than four it's my own fault for clipping it or having to move.
I actually used the log browser on the World of Logs site to look for all Fists of Fury occurences and I haven't seen 1 instance where I do 5 ticks with FoF. On the training dummy I do get 5 ticks, but not every time.

Juggling with some numbers from my logs I found out that even with 4 ticks FoF is still worth it (better than 1.5 BoK and melee + Tiger Strikes). Now maybe I'm overlooking something that makes melee'ing and BoK even better, cause I thought the general consensus was that FoF is only worth it when using the full 5 ticks, not capping energy and not delaying RSK...

More thoughts on this?

Izichial · 10/16/12, 8:09 AM

14:00:18> You cast Fists of Fury.
14:00:18> Your Fists of Fury hit Training Dummy 1 Physical. (30113 Overkill)
14:00:20> Your Fists of Fury hit Training Dummy 1 Physical. (30113 Overkill)
14:00:21> Your Fists of Fury hit Training Dummy 1 Physical. (62033 Overkill) (Critical)
14:00:22> Your Fists of Fury hit Training Dummy 1 Physical. (30113 Overkill)
14:00:23> Your Fists of Fury hit Training Dummy 1 Physical. (30112 Overkill)
14:00:23> Your Melee hit Training Dummy 1 Physical. (7238 Overkill)

I'm not raiding (as WW) on my monk, am I overlooking something that'd make it behave differently in raids? Issue with WoL perhaps? My Skada still had data from a dungeon run in it and it was all 5s there as well, both in total (as in, the total was divisible by 5) and on all induvidual segments with FoF in them.

LightforgedUS · 10/16/12, 9:50 AM

Originally Posted by Izichial

I'm not raiding (as WW) on my monk, am I overlooking something that'd make it behave differently in raids? Issue with WoL perhaps? My Skada still had data from a dungeon run in it and it was all 5s there as well, both in total (as in, the total was divisible by 5) and on all induvidual segments with FoF in them.

A lot of the fights in Mogu'shan Vaults require a lot of movement, so using it often leads to it being used suboptimally. So far, attempts to use [nochannel] have lead to the fifth tick getting cut off. It's frustrating to think about.

Honestly, I'm about to take it off my bar at this point because of the hassle using it overall.

Jezz · 10/16/12, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by LightforgedUS

A lot of the fights in Mogu'shan Vaults require a lot of movement, so using it often leads to it being used suboptimally. So far, attempts to use [nochannel] have lead to the fifth tick getting cut off. It's frustrating to think about.

Honestly, I'm about to take it off my bar at this point because of the hassle using it overall.

It's really my only gripe with the class, it just seems to be a very poorly implemented ability. When I first saw the spell I assumed there would be a glyph that allowed you to channel it while moving but without the stun, it seemed so obvious, I'm really surprised it doesn't exist. I'm not quite at the stage of removing it from my bars just yet, but I'm only using it a handful of times during the few encounters where it is actually viable and otherwise not touching it. It's disappointing for an ability which I can only assume they intended to be a core ability for Windwalker monks.

keithioapc · 10/16/12, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Izichial

I'm not raiding (as WW) on my monk, am I overlooking something that'd make it behave differently in raids? Issue with WoL perhaps? My Skada still had data from a dungeon run in it and it was all 5s there as well, both in total (as in, the total was divisible by 5) and on all induvidual segments with FoF in them.

I do not believe it to be a problem with WoL, since when I did my testing on target dummy I looked at the combat log and saw only 4 ticks. I'll try to run more tests later, varying my haste and the "spell lag tolerance" feature (Previously I had it disabled.)

Originally Posted by Eyedore

Juggling with some numbers from my logs I found out that even with 4 ticks FoF is still worth it...More thoughts on this?

I used SimulationCraft to compare using FoF with the damage it deals adjusted for only ticking 4 times to be a 0.5% dps gain over not using FoF at all. By default it had FoF ticking about 5.5 times on average.

Eyedore · 10/16/12, 7:38 PM

I killed Will of the emperor (normal) this night (World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis)

I used FoF 4 times, and on all four times I got 4 ticks. The average amount of damage for one 4-tick FoF was 286.8 k damage (I did 4 times the average hit and that times 1.3 for the crits. The average amount of damage for 1.5 BoK (including the 20% dot) was 148.0 k. My average melee hit did 34.4 k (I'm using a two-hander). My Tiger Strikes added 30.7% damage to my melee, so 1.307 x 34.4 = 44.8 k damage.
Now for a bit of guessing on how many melee swings I could get during a FoF time frame:
I melee every 2.1 seconds ish. FoF takes about 3.6 seconds but refreshes your swingtimer, so lets add 1.05 seconds for a total of 4.65 seconds. Meaning 2.21 melee swings during a FoF time frame.

4-tick FoF: 286.8

1.5 BoK: 148.0
2.21 x melee+ts: 99.0
total: 247

3-tick FoF: 215.1
melee + BoK during 3-tick FoF time: 228

Using these numbers for this one fight I did, it really seems as if FoF is good enough even if you only get 4 ticks. It would be awesome though if you can actually do 5 ticks with it.

I don't know if anyone can see any mistakes I made in the calculation?