Windwalker (DPS): a flurry of tender fisting. - Page 17

Justwait · 10/22/12, 4:43 PM

Originally Posted by BreakfastKing

I can not recreate this missing FoF tick at all.

Wearing all of my gear, targeting the enemy I get 5 hits every time.

WoL always misses my 4th tic, but it never synchs with recount or the damage I can see with my own eyes. I believe this to be a bug with WoL.

What I have noticed is that the 5th tick of FoF is a bit delayed, IE if you are using jab or anything else between the 4th and fifth tick (Even when it may seem "safe" to do so) you will not get that last tick.

Did you try getting some more haste, and see what happens after 14.5% haste ?

Jezz · 10/22/12, 4:47 PM

Originally Posted by Justwait

Did you try getting some more haste, and see what happens after 14.5% haste ?

I was testing it as well and was definitely only getting 4 tics when I was above the haste you mentioned, both my combat text and recount showed it. No idea why Breakfastking wasn't able to recreate it.

gahddo · 10/22/12, 6:43 PM

I've been trying to annoy eein into adding SFB to simc to no avail...at this rate I should just learn the coding and do it myself. The issue still arises using it in a rotation even if the DPC is higher, which we'd need simc to really be able to evaluate in-depths.

- oh, and I wasn't able to recreate either of the situations you guys have been describing with FoF. At 21% haste I'm getting 5, and while targeting both friendly, hostile, and neutral npcs I'm also getting 5. -

Xanctus · 10/22/12, 8:40 PM

I tried this aswell multiple times. Selfbuffed I have 12,89% haste in this case I always got 5 ticks. I also switched around a few items and got my haste just above 15% and lost my 5th tick aswell, just as it was mentioned above. As much as I can tell you cannot loose more than one tick because when my trinkets popped and I got around 22-23% I still got 4 ticks but never 5, but who knows right?:P

gahddo · 10/22/12, 10:06 PM

Venyasure, are the SFB discussions you've brought up based on the assumption that the buff posted on mmo-champ for 5.1 is real? We can't seem to find anything hardcoded in the spell data about it. I did manage to get eein to implement SFB for simc. After fiddling with it for awhile, I couldn't get the DPC to be higher than blackout kick with our bis, but with the same stats in your spreadsheet it comes out as a gain.

Venyasure · 10/22/12, 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by gahddo

Venyasure, are the SFB discussions you've brought up based on the assumption that the buff posted on mmo-champ for 5.1 is real?

I suppose you're referring to the change making FB scale with 66.5% of AP instead of 44.5%, as mentionned in the 5.1 patch notes. Actually, FB is already scaling with 66.5% of AP on live realms. Patch 5.1 is just a tooltip modification concerning FB. Currently you can notice in game that the damage announced in the tooltip corresponds to 44.5% (or so i guess, i only tested the 66.5%), but the real damage is scaling with 66.5%. Nothing will change when patch 5.1 is released, except the tooltip.

I did manage to get eein to implement SFB for simc. After fiddling with it for awhile, I couldn't get the DPC to be higher than blackout kick with our bis, but with the same stats in your spreadsheet it comes out as a gain.

Indeed. What i've observed on the spreadsheet is that when you're fully buffed (especially Weakened Armor and 4% physical damage favoring BoK), BoK is ahead if your gear and weapons have a similar ilvl. FB will be ahead for a low gear, or if you have weapons a bit weaker than the rest of your gear. For a full heroic gear, with heroic weapons, FB shouldn't do better than BoK. Unless of course you're casting it on a target that is 10 yards away.

gahddo · 10/23/12, 6:30 AM

I came to the same conclusion, however, placing the exact same stats in yours seems to favor SFB on my end, I'll play with it a bit later and see if I was just seeing things last night.

Venyasure · 10/23/12, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by gahddo

I came to the same conclusion, however, placing the exact same stats in yours seems to favor SFB on my end, I'll play with it a bit later and see if I was just seeing things last night.

Oh, i misunderstood you in your previous message, i thought you meant that running Simcraft with a gear corresponding to the default stat values in my spreadsheet showed a gain if you use FB.

I'm surprised the spreadsheet favors FB with 509 weapons. When i run it, it takes nearly 22k Agi for FB to be ahead if you have 509 weapons. And i don't think we have 22k Agi on heroic gear... Are you sure you ran the spreadsheet with 509 weapons ? Remember that writing "509" in the weapon ilvl cells doesn't mean that the spreadsheet will be run with such weapons ; you need to click the "Fill" button in order to fill in the "Weapon DPS" cells according to the ilvl you entered. I guess you ran the spreadsheet without clicking on the "Fill" button, which means that it used the default Weapon DPS values, which are for 463 weapons.

Edit : i've just ran the spreadsheet with the BiS Simcraft stats ; BoK is ahead.

Xandrus · 10/23/12, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Justwait

I have not been able to replicate the way Mihir has been posting, however what did work for me was taking off all gear.
Even while targeting the npc that you`re attacking, I always got 5 hits.

I assume there is a haste 'plateau' where we lose 1 tick of FoF.
a few tests indicate that as well, try for yourself.

5.08% - 5 hits
6.84% - 5 hits
9.18% - 5 hits
13.85% - 5 hits
14.20% - 5 hits
14.22% - 5 hits
14.56% - 4 hits
15.02% - 4 hits
15.36% - 4 hits

I can confirm this haste problem:

11,31% - 5 hits
12,99% - 5 hits
13,89% - 5 hits
14,13% - 5 hits
14,51% - 4 hits
15,03% - 4 hits
16,62% - 4 hits

SkunkApe · 10/23/12, 1:34 PM

Is there an up to date BiS Trinket List? I'm currently using Relic of Xuen and Searing Words and I'm in the position to upgrade Searing Words. I have the Valor/Rep to buy the Shado-Pan trinket but I could also get the Bottle off Elegon. I'd really like to know which of these is better so I don't waste Valor or take someone else's trinket if it's not that great for our class (ie huge chunk of mastery).

Thanks.

Littch · 10/23/12, 2:15 PM

Originally Posted by Eyedore

Funny you ask this, I was just about to post a trinket list

First of all: this is my first post here and I don't consider myself a theorycrafter. So do not blindly accept these values, it is probably still best to wait for a real theorycrafter to make a proper trinket list.

How I came to my values:
I simmed my monk who has almost BiS heroic dungeon gear, with a jp neck, but also the T14 hands, vp ring and pvp bracers (which are better then dungeon bracers), fully enchanted, gemmed and reforged. I am dual wielding.
With the stat weights I got from my sim I manualy calculated each trinket, using the icd that I could find in comments on wowhead (some of which said they were confirmed by ghostcrawler).

trinket	from	description	icd	proc%	procs every	score
[Relic of Xuen]	darkmoon card	agility, agility proc	55	20	63.06	4441
[Terror in the Mists]	heroic	agility, crit proc	105	15	108.34	4270
[Jade Bandit Figurine]	heroic	agility, haste use	60	-	-	3912
[Terror in the Mists]	normal	agility, crit proc	105	15	108.34	3878
[Hawkmaster's Talon]	valor points	agility, haste use	60	-	-	3731
[Jade Bandit Figurine]	normal	agility, haste use	60	-	-	3731
[Bottle of Infinite Stars]	heroic	mastery, agility proc	45	15	48.34	3666
[Bottle of Infinite Stars]	normal	mastery, agility proc	45	15	48.34	3565
[Terror in the Mists]	lfr	agility, crit proc	105	15	108.34	3531
[Bottle of Infinite Stars]	lfr	mastery, agility proc	45	15	48.34	3476
[Zen Alchemist Stone]	alch	mastery, agility proc	55	25	56.41	3392
[Searing Words]	dungeon	crit, agility proc	85	45	88.86	3300
[Jade Bandit Figurine]	lfr	agility, haste use	60	-	-	3217
[Windswept Pages]	dungeon	agility, haste proc	65	15	68.34	3206
[Flashing Steel Talisman]	dungeon	hit, agility use	90	-	-	2691
[Coren's Cold Chromium Coaster]	brewfest	crit, AP proc	45	10	61.13	2408

Again, these are rough calculations so if you want to be sure wait for a real theorycrafter to give you a list.

edit:
I used the following stat weights:
agi: 2.65
hit: 0.97
exp: 0.97
haste: 0.97
ap: 0.95
crit: 0.88
mastery: 0.56
I used the haste weight for hit and expertise as well because we have enough gear to get 7.5% hit and exp with reforging

note: [Jade Bandit Figurine] drops from trash so I don't know if this actually exists in heroic version

edit 2:
Changed stat weights to simc 505-2

edit 3:
I calculated the time to proc for each trinket this way: I simmed my character and calculated the average amount of hits or crits per second.
Any hit trinkets (including FoF and BoK dot): 2.840 hits/sec
- alchemy trinket
direct hit trinkets (FoF only 1st tick, no BoK dot): 1.996 hits/sec
- terror, bottle and windswept pages
Any crit trinkets (including FoF): 0.62 crits/sec
- xuen, coren's
Direct crit trinkets (FoF only 1st tick): 0.576 crits/sec
- flashing talisman

that's correct as far as i have seen up to now

gahddo · 10/23/12, 2:34 PM

I've tested every which way that you guys have suggested to replicate the 4 tick issue. When it comes down to it, it just seems random. The first time it happened I was below your suggested "haste breakpoint" and it happened multiple times above as well. The target didn't matter, the buffs I had up, the haste I was at, it just randomly decided to stop working at various points.

-and you were right, while half asleep I accidentally hit fill in your brewmaster spreadsheet that I had open.-

Daler · 10/23/12, 4:29 PM

For the love of

, will folks please post their work when testing FoF?

There's literally no way to start narrowing down potential bugs with FoF since no one's doing any rigorous documentation. Some folks posted haste values, but did not specify if they were using 2H or DW, what buffs they had, what debuffs the target had, target level, etc., etc. People aren't even posting target IDs (though I'm assuming it's all been on the raid dummy) and user behavior (are you autoattacking? Performing a full DPS rotation while testing FoF? How many iterations for each specified set of conditions?).

If we're going to get to the bottom of this, there's going to need to be a more rigorous testing and documentation effort from the monk community.

Xandrus · 10/23/12, 4:51 PM

Originally Posted by Xandrus

I can confirm this haste problem:

11,31% - 5 hits
12,99% - 5 hits
13,89% - 5 hits
14,13% - 5 hits
14,51% - 4 hits
15,03% - 4 hits
16,62% - 4 hits

2H
no buffs
no debuffs
Raid Target Dummy

just spamming jab to 4 chi and then using FoF
Tried it serveral times with constant results.

Professor Hurt · 10/23/12, 4:57 PM

Originally Posted by Xandrus

2H
no buffs
no debuffs
Raid Target Dummy

just spamming jab to 4 chi and then using FoF
Tried it serveral times with constant results.

How long did you wait after FoF before hitting jab again? Did you try building to 3 chi without attacking anything and then using FoF on the target dummy?