Windwalker (DPS): a flurry of tender fisting. - Page 19

neonman · 10/27/12, 2:21 PM

Originally Posted by Noxi

I really can't see us to cap our energy again with the TP "buff"

unfortunately i have no idea how to make tests with sim and this stuff

The tp buff will do nothing at all about our haste/gcd cap issues, you will still have to use TP every ~18-20 seconds, you just won't have to stack it up at the start of the fight any more so you save 2 gcds over the course of a whole bossfight.

Noxi · 10/27/12, 4:20 PM

Originally Posted by neonman

The tp buff will do nothing at all about our haste/gcd cap issues, you will still have to use TP every ~18-20 seconds, you just won't have to stack it up at the start of the fight any more so you save 2 gcds over the course of a whole bossfight.

I just got problems if we pull the boss and use BL instantly. But let's just wait until someone test it with simc

LightforgedUS · 10/29/12, 12:03 AM

I did some testing and it appears that the bug with Fists of Fury haste has to do with it's interaction with spell haste (or more accurately, its lack-thereof). As previous discussion has told out, after a certain haste percentage, roughly 13-14%, Fists of Fury loses one tick due to the channel duration of FoF going down.

My monk has 11.10% haste and is experiencing this phenomenon while in raid (with the 5% spell haste buff) but not while solo. This leads me to believe that this bug occurs because spell haste is INCORRECTLY affecting FoF. I'll be posting in the US Bug Report now.

Darkaeth · 10/29/12, 1:02 AM

I can confirm as well that it's related to spell haste. At 13.95 spell and melee haste, I was getting 5 ticks off of FoF. I got my friend, a balance druid, to join my party, putting my spell haste to 19.64 and was getting 4 ticks instead of 5 ticks everytime. Test this by using chi brew followed by FoF. And when chi brew was down, Expel Harm x 2 + FoF.

This is using a DW(476/463) setup.

effyTW · 10/29/12, 7:39 AM

I did some testing on Xuen. Its auto-attack damage doesn't benefit from armor reduction (both TP buff and 12% WA) or it actually ignores target armor. And its attack speed updates dynamically with monk's increase attack speed (including 40% from passive when two-hand is equiped and 50% from Tiger Strikes).
Its AP seems to be 50% of monk's (given that the AP scaling coefficient of Crackling Tiger Lightning is 50.5% according to WoWDB).

test sheet

Noxi · 10/29/12, 8:37 AM

Originally Posted by effyTW

I did some testing on Xuen. Its auto-attack damage doesn't benefit from armor reduction (both TP buff and 12% WA) or it actually ignores target armor. And its attack speed updates dynamically with monk's increase attack speed (including 40% from passive when two-hand is equiped and 50% from Tiger Strikes).
Its AP seems to be 50% of monk's (given that the AP scaling coefficient of Crackling Tiger Lightning is 50.5% according to WoWDB).

test sheet

Xuen benefits from the 40% hast if you wear a 2h weapon? Is this allready in our spreadsheets? If not 2h and 2x 1h would be pretty even i think

Mihir · 10/29/12, 10:55 AM

Seeing as most of Xuen's damage comes from the Crackling Tiger Lightning and only a small part from his actual melee attacks, I doubt this will change much concerning DW vs 2H.

Jezz · 10/29/12, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Noxi

Xuen benefits from the 40% hast if you wear a 2h weapon? Is this allready in our spreadsheets? If not 2h and 2x 1h would be pretty even i think

I just tested it and it would appear so, I'm not convinced that it will be enough to completely close the gap between DW and 2H but it should make it a little closer (assuming it's not in the spreadsheet).

gahddo · 10/29/12, 4:00 PM

Originally Posted by Jezz

I just tested it and it would appear so, I'm not convinced that it will be enough to completely close the gap between DW and 2H but it should make it a little closer (assuming it's not in the spreadsheet).

Its already implemented in this way in simc. This probably explains why the gap between the two in simc/the spreadsheet was different though.

BreakfastKing · 10/30/12, 7:41 PM

So with the way FoF is broken, I currently am hitting the point of 4 ticks with my own natural haste, no trinkets or anything.

Should I even bother using Fist of Fury at this point?

I've also noticed that some times the 5th tick does seem to appear, I have no clue what causes it or anything, but the attacks just seem to roll out faster during the channel than they normally do, has anyone else encountered this?

Littch · 11/01/12, 9:01 AM

What is the Haste caps exactly for DW and 2H?

i know DW is ruffly about 6.6k, but not sure about 2H, since crit seems a hell ton better for 2h than DW

Crevan · 11/01/12, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Crevan

To provide some numbers with what Lightforged said, here are a few examples with current gear levels.

Using my character with current ilvl of 469 dual-wielding blue 463 weapons as baseline I got the following:

DW ilvl463 - 64900 dps, 100%
2H ilvl463 - 62935 dps, 96.97%
2H ilvl476 - 65825 dps, 101.43%

So, with equal tier weapons, DW is ~3% ahead of 2H. Going one tier above with 2H will net you a <1.5% dps boost. This seems to match what others have discussed here and elsewhere.

So, with equal-tier weapons, DW is better; a 2H 13 ilvls above will beat DW by a small margin.

PS It's also worth investigating mixed-tier DW against 2h, for example 476+463 DW against 476 2H, but I suspect it will be very close in terms of numbers.

Going back to this 2H vs DW discussion, I finally got around to running some sims with mixed-ilvl weapon setups for DW. I used my current gear (around 488 average) with the 489 polearm as a baseline. Everything apart from the weapons stayed the same between sims. I didn't adjust hit/exp to match caps, but it turned out pretty close to them anyway. Dancing Steel on both DW weapons. The 463 weapon was Ner'onok's Razor Katar, the 476-to-502 were the various versions of Gara'kal, Fist of the Spiritbinder. Simulations were set to a Patchwerk-style fight over 25k iterations. Here are the results:

2H 489		83031	100.00%
DW 476+463	80008	96.36%
DW 476+476	81585	98.26%
DW 489+463	83409	100.46%
DW 489+476	85015	102.39%
DW 502+463	87267	105.10%
DW 502+476	88860	107.02%
DW 502+489	90763	109.31%

So, with equal ilvl 1H main-hand and 2H, DW starts pulling ahead ever-so-slightly with an off-hand 2 tiers (26 ilvls) below the main-hand. With 1H main-hand one tier (13 ilvls) above the 2H, you could go over three tiers (39 ilvls) down for the off-hand and still have DW > 2H.

As always with this kind of simulations, your results may vary.

♦ Brade · 11/01/12, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Crevan

Dancing Steel on both DW weapons.

Using the spreadsheet Venyasure put up and plugging in my numbers from the armory I get the following results:

Dancing Steel MH / Windsong OH: 79088.952
Dancing Steel MH and OH: 78896.492

I'm not sure if this would change your results at all.

Crevan · 11/01/12, 1:44 PM

Simcraft and the spreadsheet provide different results for enchants, but it shouldn't matter too much. We're really only looking at the relative strength of weapon combinations, not absolute numbers.

Xiaoryn · 11/03/12, 6:06 PM

Hi, long time lurker (a very...very long time lurker) but first time poster, bear with me please

Working on Blade Lord this week, and I noticed something: I would average more dps over the course of the fight if I ignored FoF altogether, and focused on keeping RSK on cooldown and wisely using energybrew (a typical difference of roughly 3-4k).

I've come to the unofficial conclusion that FoF seems to be a dps loss in almost all cases on this fight, and I was wondering what the consensus was regarding FoF in general?

I find the spell incredibly underwhelming even on fights where I am able to use it to it's full effect, such as Garajal and Elegon.

Should we be simply be using FoF as an AoE control ability, instead of a dps cooldown?