The sim has been updated to properly reflected both the first and second haste breakpoints (the achievable ones) for FoF. IT IS STILL A GAIN TO USE IT PASSED THE BREAKPOINT. It's simply a smaller difference, ~2.1% with 2pc. You have to pay attention to the conditionals however. If at any point during FoF you cap energy, lose the TP buff, or lose the RSK debuff, it is a loss. If you lose one tick due to movement/the first breakpoint it is still a gain, any ticks further than that and its basically dead even with not using it at all.

As for weights I'm currently rerunning heroic dw bis without FoF to see what it puts out. Using fof PERFECTLY crit = haste until 2pc, then with 2pc haste > crit until 6.7k haste then they flip. Since the sim can't do movement based melee yet (movement events turn off ALL MELEE, even the ones you'd still be using while following the boss) I'll be running it without FoF and with to try and find a middle ground on weights.

Were you referring to the 10H Garajal board, or the 25H? Because looking at the 25H, the first person on there uses FoF and did over 100k dps. Again, if you are NOT using FoF, you are essentially lowering your damage. There are times on every boss fight where you can use it. Blue has said before that FoF is intended to be used in the rotation, it will be challenging to use, and might not be able to use it 100% of the time on cooldown. But not every boss is moving a lot, you have ample times to actually use it and you can game your energy/chi to be able to use it when low on energy and RSK has just been used.

FoF is what will set the average monks from the good ones apart. Those who learn to use it whenever they can, will see the increased gains of it.

If your analysis is based on the very top parse on WoL and not a collective rated by gear, length of kill and % of crits, you'll never get any reliable information.

At the time, my 96k parse was rank 6 or so, with a 489 2hweapon, beating out several people with 502 weapons, does that mean a 489 polearm is better than 502 fist weapons/502 polearms? No, it means RNG plays a large factor in it, which it always does in the very top ranks. You simply can't decide that FoF is better by looking at THE top WoL parse and see that "x" player used it. But I guarantee if you look through the top 40 logs you'll find more than a couple people not using FoF at all. And according to Simcraft at a ~490ilvl assuming you use FoF perfectly it is still less than a 1.5% gain. Its not going to separate the good from the bad at all. Its going to be a very very minor dps increase where in most fights it wont be worth a keybind.

Looked at the top 40 parses for WW Monks for The Spirit Kings, since someone mentioned that fight being subpar to use it on because of movement.

Of the 40, 9/40 didn't use FoF. That's 22.5% of the top 40 that didn't use an ability that can increase their damage if used right. If in sim and practice, using FoF is a dps increase... not using it will put your damage at a lower threshold than if you did use it. Using it correctly is important, but it is still something the dev's wanted us to do and intentionally put on our tier set for us to use.

I believe this thread is not for what devs have said and intended but how things actually work. And it's been quite much debate here if FoF is worth using or not with the existing bug. Just saying that it's a noticeable dps gain to use it without providing any theorycrafting to prove that doesn't help much. Even if it's a gain it hardly separates good windwalkers from bad ones in it's current form. It's much like combat rogues and rupture has been many times in WoW history - so marginal a dps gain even with optimal use and more significant dps loss if used wrong that it may be better to not to use it while progressing and get more resources for situational awareness.

So let me know if this makes any sense. I've been using FoF during parts of the fight where I've spent my energy and don't have my Energizing Brew. Maybe this becomes a non-issue at certain levels of haste, but at the moment (4978 unbuffed haste) I'm still running into spots in a fight where I don't have enough energy for Jab and don't have any chi. By the time I'm done channeling FoF I have enough energy to continue my normal priorities. Does this affect the value of FoF in a meaningful way? Or does the value (assuming no energy is wasted) remain completely based on chi spent compared to other chi-spenders?

First post, sorry if this is speculative and not actual theorycrafting.

I really want to like Expel Harm, but I use it for survivability more than damage output. I prefer Jab because of the mastery procs associated with it.

When I have over 60ish energy I'll lean on EH, and below that I'll use jab. High energy situations I don't really need the mastery procs, and low energy I do.

Has anyone given any thought to trading off between the two, or how to equate the two, or calculate the expected value of a Jab + Mastery Proc? At what HP do they break even?

That's true. I guess I am more thinking along the lines of when is it optimal. The mastery proc chance can proc either though. Using your numbers:

Jab + CB:BK = 80 + 20k = 100k (13% chance of occurring)

Jab + CB:TP = 30 + 20k = 50k (13% chance of occurring)

Jab + CB:BK + CB:TP = 130k ( 1.69% chance of occurring)

Jab = 20k (72.31% chance of occurring)

Weighted Average = 36.16k -> EH for 72.32k

I think my EH hits for about 56k roughly with my weapons and gear, so then if I can use the mastery procs, I'll stick with Jab. If I don't need them my basis for comparison is the jab alone (20k) and EH will do more damage overall.

I'd like to math out how this scales with gear. Right now I have an EH CLCInfo icon that lights up if I have less than 75% health; EH heals more as you get more gear, but your HP pool goes up as well, which makes me think that there is an HP% breakeven for using EH. It's value gets a little fuzzy depending on if you can use the GCDs (energy dependant) or not though, but in terms of raw numbers I think that works.

It also looks like EH strength drops as you have more mastery (for this type of comparison) something maybe to ponder in the future if mastery gets good or EH gets changed.

Since it is a heal first, any time we receive bonus healing, it seems like EH would pull out ahead. Elegon would be a good encounter for this depending on if you need the healing or not.

I would appreciate some clarification on Touch of Karma's mechanics. The Buff/Duration lasts 10 seconds but the tooltip says it only applies to 6 seconds of damage. Does it last 10 or 6 seconds basically.

Am i mis-reading the tooltip or is my understanding of it incorrect? I have been using it like a super spell reflect that only applies to damage.

Does it instead apply a 6 second DoT of all damage you receive for the 10 seconds the buff is active or till it exceeds your max HP?

10 second buff, you can take up to 100% of your health in damage before the buff drops, when the buff drops you do all damage taken to the target over 6 seconds.

I have a few top parses on heroic bosses on WoL right now (WW by the name of Kimberhart).
All this discussion about whether FoF is a dps loss or gain is missing the point in my opinion.
When Energizing Brew is on CD, no combo breakers procs are up and you're waiting on your energy to regen, I always think that's the appropriate time to use FoF because you regen to nearly full energy while FoF is being channeled.
It is a great filler rather than sitting and waiting to for energy to jab.

That's why, for a few kills, I rarely use FoF on some attempts and use it nearly on CD other times. It just comes down to how my RNG for that attempt is.
And even if it's a dps increase when bloodlusted/heroismed, I tend to not use it because I don't want to risk it being on CD when I am energy starved and sitting at 0 or 1 chi.