Windwalker (DPS): a flurry of tender fisting. - Page 28

fr0d0b0ls0n · 11/30/12, 7:57 AM

My bad, I don't know where I got 2539 AGI proc for bottle, WOL is wrong with the tooltips maybe.

Crevan · 11/30/12, 9:15 AM

There was some confusion with tooltips earlier in the thread (in Eyedore's trinket list), which I think happened because wowhead was displaying the scaled challenge mode tooltips for the procs rather than the proper ones.

Eyedore · 11/30/12, 11:00 AM

I'll try to update that trinket list when things have settled down a bit and we know our new stat weights. I will by that time probably add two scores per trinket, one for normal mode gear and one for heroic (right now it's normal mode gear).

Appart from that, my guess is it stays this way: Bottle hc > Terror hc > Bottle nm > Relic of Xuen ~ Terror nm

Just because the Bottle procs so often. Terror nm might come ahead of Xuen if crit becomes valuable enough compared to agi.

Xiaoryn · 11/30/12, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Mihir

I've dropped a bit of haste to get below 7k, not sure yet if I want to drop more. Don't have 4piece bonus yet so that might also influence things.

I've started going full agi gems, deft oranges, and glinting purples to get my haste a little lower & gain attackpower and crit instead. As it stands, self buffed, I'm around 6500, with ~13.3 energy/sec. It feels right, and my numbers seem better than when I was in a full haste build. In fact, I wonder if I should be capping haste at 6k...I'll play with it a little more.

I have also started using FoF a LOT more often - with good results, according to my recount and WoL.

I still think our 2pc is pretty weak, though; I will only use FoF when (1)I have around 5-6 seconds on RSK cooldown, (2)not in danger of energy capping for longer than a second or two, and (3)I'm in a spot (raidwise) where all 5 of the ticks will land. More often than not, I do not meet all 3 of that criteria once every 40 seconds...probably closer to once every minute to minute and a half.

----edit: After reading some posts re: using FoF on cooldown...what criteria are you guys using before deciding when to use FoF? I can't see how I'd use it on cooldown without straight drowning in all that extra energy. Maybe this is where the logic of crit>haste kicks in?

lol 'WARNING: SLOW LEARNER'

Littch · 11/30/12, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Xiaoryn

I've started going full agi gems, deft oranges, and glinting purples to get my haste a little lower & gain attackpower and crit instead. As it stands, self buffed, I'm around 6500, with ~13.3 energy/sec. It feels right, and my numbers seem better than when I was in a full haste build. In fact, I wonder if I should be capping haste at 6k...I'll play with it a little more.

I have also started using FoF a LOT more often - with good results, according to my recount and WoL.

I still think our 2pc is pretty weak, though; I will only use FoF when (1)I have around 5-6 seconds on RSK cooldown, (2)not in danger of energy capping for longer than a second or two, and (3)I'm in a spot (raidwise) where all 5 of the ticks will land. More often than not, I do not meet all 3 of that criteria once every 40 seconds...probably closer to once every minute to minute and a half.

----edit: After reading some posts re: using FoF on cooldown...what criteria are you guys using before deciding when to use FoF? I can't see how I'd use it on cooldown without straight drowning in all that extra energy. Maybe this is where the logic of crit>haste kicks in?

lol 'WARNING: SLOW LEARNER'

reforged Crit > Haste > Mastery.
reds agi
yellow agi crit
purp agi hit

once i have the 30% arp and 15% damage increase from RSK on the boss, my priority changes to

FoF > RSK > BoK for chi spending

im currently sitting on 12.5 energy per sec which i find is easily enough to get by with, im using 2pc.

Eeinx · 11/30/12, 2:47 PM

Originally Posted by Eyedore

I'll try to update that trinket list when things have settled down a bit and we know our new stat weights. I will by that time probably add two scores per trinket, one for normal mode gear and one for heroic (right now it's normal mode gear).

Appart from that, my guess is it stays this way: Bottle hc > Terror hc > Bottle nm > Relic of Xuen ~ Terror nm

Just because the Bottle procs so often. Terror nm might come ahead of Xuen if crit becomes valuable enough compared to agi.

I'd be glad to help when I get some time after we try and figure out the stat weights and actual haste breakpoints.

Currently the profile has some conditionals that use abilities when at certain amounts of energy. This could potentially devalue some abilities in the priority that need to be valued more when you have less haste (and more crit.); probably the reason why we are seeing such a variation in our stat weights.

For example FoF has a conditional not to allow energy to cap. If we're running ascension, and using EB, we might not be able to use it as much as we'd like. Having a high haste build and using FoF might be better to completely remove EB from the rotation to use FoF. Things like that are what we are considering and this just pushes a high crit build even further with those things in mind.

I'm going to recommend to Gahdda that he should simplify the profile for determining stat values and then start working further into the profile once we find out which is better.

Its quite a apparent that FoF is actually much better than what simc is showing, so we're hoping to move forward what I mentioned above to get a better stat priority and damage number.
After this is complete, we can spend some time working on trinket values.

On the note of trinkets, the main reason why its hard to place Bottle in my opinion is that mastery tends to devalue haste, the more of it you have, the less value it can potentially put on haste due to capping. So if we get rid of energy conditionals, we should be able to determine trinket values a bit better.

Formulatively, I found relic of xuen is probably one of the best trinkets for its intended uptime. We'll gradually get to a point where we can give a concise answer on this though. Its going to take alot of tweaking and work.

jaydsterc2 · 11/30/12, 11:32 PM

So I'm getting double procs on Dancing steel now, is this new? I don't remember seeing it before.

Dyonas · 11/30/12, 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by jaydsterc2

So I'm getting double procs on Dancing steel now, is this new? I don't remember seeing it before.

This change was recently applied as a hotfix. RPPM enchants can now double proc like that.

Shadown · 12/01/12, 4:38 PM

I dont know if it's a bug or something related to the FoF fix

but i have noticed something strange on FoF burst/dps, precog : i got around 4k haste and around 30% crit, everytime i use FoF i notice a dps increase on recount only on the first 2 ticks, with(out) crit.

I'm asking since im not a big fan of FoF, everytime i use it instead of RSK or BK i saw a dps loss on recount ( something like 300-500dps so not a big problem) so i'm wondering if anybody got the same issue or maybe is something related to the haste.

Not a really "theorycrafting" post but the sha of doubt is pressing me :\

Littch · 12/02/12, 6:02 PM

As i said i would get some decent logs up of Crit > haste, FoF on cd.
using spirit binder since its the closest thing towards patchwerk style

Damage Done - 02-12 17:51 - Ecology - World of Logs

Halens · 12/02/12, 7:55 PM

Originally Posted by Littch

As i said i would get some decent logs up of Crit > haste, FoF on cd.
using spirit binder since its the closest thing towards patchwerk style

Damage Done - 02-12 17:51 - Ecology - World of Logs

Good logs mate, I'm on the fence with the whole crit > haste theory. I'm wondering if you have to hit a certain gear threshold for that to become true. I also seem to have an issue with FoF on CD, for ex. I'll have 2 Chi no energy to build a third, I have the choice between wait for energy regen or use the 2 Chi on BoK. If anyone has constructive insight it would be appreciated.

For reference my armory is : Brownbearr @ Eonar - Community - World of Warcraft

Littch · 12/03/12, 4:10 AM

Originally Posted by Halens

Good logs mate, I'm on the fence with the whole crit > haste theory. I'm wondering if you have to hit a certain gear threshold for that to become true. I also seem to have an issue with FoF on CD, for ex. I'll have 2 Chi no energy to build a third, I have the choice between wait for energy regen or use the 2 Chi on BoK. If anyone has constructive insight it would be appreciated.

For reference my armory is : Brownbearr @ Eonar - Community - World of Warcraft

i find as long as i have around 12 energy per sec income i can pull it off np, but then again i have 2pc. probably need slightly more haste without 2pc.

on the terms of not having enough chi to use FoF on CD, all i can say is you need to think about when its coming off cd, 3-5 secs before you need to work out if you need to pool energy or not, you only need to pool enough for 2 jabs if you have no chi, since as long as you don't cap while casting FoF its fine. it will also give you time to sort your positioning for it. i use my energy brew slightly delayed at the start then pretty much on cd there after.

Until SimCraft has updated our priority list, or it has been proven/unproven that FoF should be used on cd or not, i cannot test if crit is our best stat or if we need a certain amount of haste before going crit. But atm it does feel like its the way to go, because extra haste doesn't really make a massive difference on energy regen.

Shadown · 12/03/12, 5:00 AM

Originally Posted by Littch

i find as long as i have around 12 energy per sec income i can pull it off np, but then again i have 2pc. probably need slightly more haste without 2pc.

on the terms of not having enough chi to use FoF on CD, all i can say is you need to think about when its coming off cd, 3-5 secs before you need to work out if you need to pool energy or not, you only need to pool enough for 2 jabs if you have no chi, since as long as you don't cap while casting FoF its fine. it will also give you time to sort your positioning for it. i use my energy brew slightly delayed at the start then pretty much on cd there after.

Until SimCraft has updated our priority list, or it has been proven/unproven that FoF should be used on cd or not, i cannot test if crit is our best stat or if we need a certain amount of haste before going crit. But atm it does feel like its the way to go, because extra haste doesn't really make a massive difference on energy regen.

Nice logs, may i ask some data on a 5min fight vs dummy (with your crit>haste setup) between using or not FoF in your normal rotation?

Im quite sure that there is a "line" between Haste and Crit where FoF could be better with n haste(crit) rating and viceversa and therefore we need precise data from simcraft about FoF usage.

-----

About the "haste>crit or crit>haste" question, haste is problably our strongest stat after agi but our goal is to find the "point" where haste provide enough energy regen (with ascension talent) to put us in the gap between "energy thirsty" and "energy choke" since BK has only the GCD we have to focus our thoughts about Jab spam/usage (TP and RSK are FIRST debuffers for us then DPS (RSK))

I would reccomend you to do some test like this : 1) Group a SHAMAN or a MAGE 2) Go to the Boss Dummy 3) Put TP and RSK 4) Ask for Hero/TW and pop EB

Even if you try to spamming JAB BK RSK TB you will not avoid a "energy/chi" choking since energy regen would be faster than JabGCDspam+BK ; and looking at the Haste/Regen boost on our character sheet , that rating is well beyond our haste cap and therefore crit would be a dps increase.

And even with the haste "cap" there is no such thing as "100% crit" due to the fact that 73% is the crit cap (100%-glancing-boss resil) and assuming 73% as 100% we can see that 73:100=x:50 our "hypothetical 50% crit" is 36,5% - look how Littch got 33% unbuffed, so with raid buffs+food+flask+pot he can get 40-42% and therefore going beyond the 50% crit so maybe this is the main factor about his "crit>haste" hypothesis

just my 2 cent but atm i dont have enough time to test

P.S - I didnt mention FoF since Simcraft hasnt proven 100% accurate about using or not FoF on CD.

Littch · 12/03/12, 7:38 AM

wont do the dummy testing, since after all comparing a dummy to actual raids not that great, will post some more up Wednesday when we are clearing farm content not using FoF at all, i previously was doing this before starting to use FoF again. i found i didnt really have the energy regen to keep it up. so as it was previously stated, if you dont use FoF its probably fair to say Haste=crit on our stat weights. there for you would probably end up with about 13 energy per sec which should cover it.

i also tested Haste > crit jus after 5.1 got released, i can clearly say this is not wise, it becomes impossible not to energy cap at times, the only way i can see this way being viable is if you have next to 0 mastery on your gear, since 1-2 BoK procs in a row you'll cap

Moozhe · 12/03/12, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by Littch

wont do the dummy testing, since after all comparing a dummy to actual raids not that great, will post some more up Wednesday when we are clearing farm content not using FoF at all, i previously was doing this before starting to use FoF again. i found i didnt really have the energy regen to keep it up. so as it was previously stated, if you dont use FoF its probably fair to say Haste=crit on our stat weights. there for you would probably end up with about 13 energy per sec which should cover it.

i also tested Haste > crit jus after 5.1 got released, i can clearly say this is not wise, it becomes impossible not to energy cap at times, the only way i can see this way being viable is if you have next to 0 mastery on your gear, since 1-2 BoK procs in a row you'll cap

The difference between having 0 mastery and having some mastery is not that large. All classes should have an innate amount of mastery even while naked equivalent to somewhere around 4-6k mastery rating. So you will still get RNG mastery procs in a row fairly consistently no matter what.

The real question is whether the weighting is close enough to make you want to gear around those mastery procs so you can hit them without energy or GCD capping, or is it better to gear in spite of them.