Windwalker (DPS): a flurry of tender fisting. - Page 29

Hamsda · 12/03/12, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Moozhe

All classes should have an innate amount of mastery even while naked equivalent to somewhere around 4-6k mastery rating.

Just to provide the exact amount: As soon as you reach level 80 and get the mastery skill you have 8 points of mastery (which are still used by the game to my knowledge, just not displayed anymore), meaning you have an innate 4800 mastery. That coupled with the mastery buff in a raid environment alone should lead to some situations where you will get more than 1 mastery procc shortly after another.

Halens · 12/03/12, 5:24 PM

Originally Posted by Littch

i find as long as i have around 12 energy per sec income i can pull it off np, but then again i have 2pc. probably need slightly more haste without 2pc.

on the terms of not having enough chi to use FoF on CD, all i can say is you need to think about when its coming off cd, 3-5 secs before you need to work out if you need to pool energy or not, you only need to pool enough for 2 jabs if you have no chi, since as long as you don't cap while casting FoF its fine. it will also give you time to sort your positioning for it. i use my energy brew slightly delayed at the start then pretty much on cd there after.

Until SimCraft has updated our priority list, or it has been proven/unproven that FoF should be used on cd or not, i cannot test if crit is our best stat or if we need a certain amount of haste before going crit. But atm it does feel like its the way to go, because extra haste doesn't really make a massive difference on energy regen.

Now clearly this is Energy/s raid buffed correct? And unbuffed what do you say your Energy/s is? And also thanks on the insight for what I may be doing wrong at higher crit levels.

Littch · 12/03/12, 7:32 PM

Originally Posted by Halens

Now clearly this is Energy/s raid buffed correct? And unbuffed what do you say your Energy/s is? And also thanks on the insight for what I may be doing wrong at higher crit levels.

12 is what i usually end up with in challenge modes, i currently sit on 12.5 ish raid buffed or not, doesnt change much since 10% haste from buffs dont change our energy intake at all

Halens · 12/04/12, 12:19 AM

I tried balancing my haste around 12.5-12.6 energy regen due to the lack of 2 piece, it actually felt very smooth - I'll be toying around with the values to balance out my energy regen values / crit.

Currently my crit is 4144 and my haste is 4393.

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Shadown · 12/04/12, 3:51 AM

I'm cross posting the energy regen formula from the Brewmaster Thread

Originally Posted by Venyasure

Energy regen can be calculated with the following formula :
reg(h,a) = 1.1 * 10 * (1 + h/42500) * (1 + 0.15*a)
where h is Haste rating and a is whether or not you have Ascension (a = 0 or 1).

thx to Venyasure

Assuming a standard rotation-energy reg like [Spell->GDC(regen)->Spell->GDC...]

100e - 40e(JB) + regh + regh/TP - 40e(JB) + regh*2/(RSK) and then normal rotation (assuming FoF only if RSK CD/RSK TP BUFF UP + 1CHI + 40E left)

With regh = 12 ->> 100-40=60+24=84-40=44+24=56 ->>> 56e and 1 chi so -40e(JB) = 16+3chi and maybe this is the perfect moment to use FoF and let the energy regenerate (4sec * regh)

I will do for sure some test (i've got around 14 regh, not sure) to see any error

-----------

About our mastery....the fact that even 5% or 10% proc can ruin our rotation and let us to energy capping or skill delay (since a free TB or BK are extra dps and delaying them will be a loss) is the reason we reforge it on crit and haste

I was asking a dummy data because even the 10% haste buff from raid is an energy increase and we need data test about our skill selfbuffed not with raid buff or elixirs

even with 12 or 12.5 there are differences on long fights ( on an hypothetical 5min fight [300sec]) there would be a 150 extra energy regen ~ 3.75 jab ~ 6/7 chi

Littch · 12/04/12, 8:00 AM

Originally Posted by Shadown

I'm cross posting the energy regen formula from the Brewmaster Thread

thx to Venyasure

Assuming a standard rotation-energy reg like [Spell->GDC(regen)->Spell->GDC...]

100e - 40e(JB) + regh + regh/TP - 40e(JB) + regh*2/(RSK) and then normal rotation (assuming FoF only if RSK CD/RSK TP BUFF UP + 1CHI + 40E left)

With regh = 12 ->> 100-40=60+24=84-40=44+24=56 ->>> 56e and 1 chi so -40e(JB) = 16+3chi and maybe this is the perfect moment to use FoF and let the energy regenerate (4sec * regh)

I will do for sure some test (i've got around 14 regh, not sure) to see any error

-----------

About our mastery....the fact that even 5% or 10% proc can ruin our rotation and let us to energy capping or skill delay (since a free TB or BK are extra dps and delaying them will be a loss) is the reason we reforge it on crit and haste

I was asking a dummy data because even the 10% haste buff from raid is an energy increase and we need data test about our skill selfbuffed not with raid buff or elixirs

even with 12 or 12.5 there are differences on long fights ( on an hypothetical 5min fight [300sec]) there would be a 150 extra energy regen ~ 3.75 jab ~ 6/7 chi

im currently using FoF above RSK priority btw. aslong as the damage increase is up.
dont know if you have been doing the maths this way or not

Willfred · 12/04/12, 3:16 PM

What I'm a bit sceptic about is that FoF, apart from its haste 'bug' being fixed, is still kind of a broken ability.

Correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I know FoF wasn't used due to 3 main reasons:
It dropped ticks due to haste, making it do shit damage for a 3 chi ability.
It was a channel, so at the cost of mobility you'd be doing a mediocre amount of damage.
You would lose autohits in the channel, which made you lose a lot of damage as well.

Occasionally you'd be in a struggle with your TP stacks, but the new TP swooped that problem out of the way.

Granted, they fixed the haste 'bug', but on the vast majority of fights I find myself in a position where I want to use FoF rotationwise, but don't want to use it because I'll be doing something else in the near future (interrupting, moving, using defensive cooldowns, whatever). Still rendering it a broken ability in my eyes. So why are people revolving their rotations and reforges, gemming and enchanting around FoF? I can hardly imagine it being a dps increase on most of the fights.

Given that the Ascension buff obviously requires us to drop haste for crit. I'm just really confused on what to do next.

brolynn · 12/04/12, 3:49 PM

FoF is awkward to use and FoF is a dps gain to use. The discussion here shouldn't be continued whining about the ability hoping to find it isn't worth using but rather tips on how to align it in your rotation as smoothly as possible.

eekon · 12/04/12, 4:16 PM

Haven't had a chance to try new FoF out extensively, but I just did some static LFR bosses and noticed 2 things:

I think using it right gives a slight dps gain.
I think using it right often makes energy perfectly balanced. Very rarely out of energy and very rarely energy capped if at all.

Now, I thought our set bonuses were terrible before 5.1. So where does this leave us? Our 2-piece becomes interesting, seeing it's a skill we'll use a lot. But is it useful? My philosophy is RSK>FoF. This means I'll make sure to cast RSK before considering FoF. In a static fight, this means the 25 second cd on FoF perfectly matches the 8 second cooldown on RSK. With 2-piece bonus, the cooldown is 20 seconds. If I use FoF on cd I will delay the RSK. This may be a slight dps increase, but it disturbs my rotation and feels like it would be annoying. What's the consensus among people with 2-piece? More annoying than useful? Do you use FoF on cd disregarding the loss of RSK uses?

What's really disappointing is our 4-piece bonus. It just does nothing for us. Even with only 3 % haste it might give me 1 extra special per minute, and that's really only in a patchwerk situation.

Getting increasingly disappointed in WW design. They fixed a couple of problems in the patch, but the two big ones still remain: A dumb mastery and two dumb set bonuses.

LightforgedUS · 12/04/12, 4:19 PM

Originally Posted by brolynn

FoF is awkward to use and FoF is a dps gain to use. The discussion here shouldn't be continued whining about the ability hoping to find it isn't worth using but rather tips on how to align it in your rotation as smoothly as possible.

Brolynn has a point. The way I'm using it currently is to use it whenever I feel I can, low energy, no movement for a little bit and possibly even a procced trinket. Don't feel forced to use it, but use it as much as you feel safe; don't use it when attenuation is due just because it's off cooldown, use it because it's safe to. Having as little mastery as possible and a little haste (not that much) will do wonders for FoF use (especially with 2 set t14 and ascension).

Basically, don't beat yourself up over not using FoF on cooldown - we aren't robots, WoW is not a simulation and nothing will go to plan. Make due with what you got.

CodeNameSly · 12/04/12, 4:55 PM

To hopefully introduce some more systematic consideration of FoF usage (particularly in a simulation setting), perhaps it would be best to list conditions that might lead one to not use FoF:

Energy capping
TP buff dropping
RSK debuff dropping
RSK coming off CD before FoF finishes
Cannot use full duration FoF

I think we can probably immediately dismiss using FoF if one will not be able to complete the entire duration of the channel (e.g. movement, interrupt, etc. required). The problem with everything else is that it's on a sliding scale. FoF most assuredly be a loss if you have only 1 second left on both the RSK debuff and TP buff and RSK is not on CD and you're at 95 energy. It will most assuredly be a gain if you have >= 5 seconds on RSK debuff, TP buff, and RSK CD and you're at 20 energy. What seems necessary at this point is trying out all combinations of the remaining conditions to see which is optimal. Of course this is going to be annoyingly iterative since I imagine as the conditions for FoF usage change so will optimal stats.

saboya · 12/04/12, 5:16 PM

With the latest changes and fix to FoF, it's probably using on CD even if you briefly energy cap or delay RsK for a bit. Dropping TP or RsK debuff pretty much never happens with current mastery / using RsK on cooldown.

CodeNameSly · 12/04/12, 5:26 PM

Originally Posted by saboya

With the latest changes and fix to FoF, it's probably using on CD even if you briefly energy cap or delay RsK for a bit. Dropping TP or RsK debuff pretty much never happens with current mastery / using RsK on cooldown.

Right, my suspicion would be that dropping TP of RSK debuff could be pretty much ignored as conditions. To limit the number of combinations to try, one could just consider various amounts of energy capping and various amounts of RSK delay.

Willfred · 12/04/12, 5:35 PM

Originally Posted by LightforgedUS

Brolynn has a point. The way I'm using it currently is to use it whenever I feel I can, low energy, no movement for a little bit and possibly even a procced trinket. Don't feel forced to use it, but use it as much as you feel safe; don't use it when attenuation is due just because it's off cooldown, use it because it's safe to. Having as little mastery as possible and a little haste (not that much) will do wonders for FoF use (especially with 2 set t14 and ascension).

Basically, don't beat yourself up over not using FoF on cooldown - we aren't robots, WoW is not a simulation and nothing will go to plan. Make due with what you got.

You guys seem to be missing my point. Some players, like Litchlol, are revolving most of their gear and rotation to get the most out of FoF, and I was just wondering whether it was worth it or not. I know how FoF works and I know how FoF is a ballbreaking but sometimes necessary skill.

Littch · 12/04/12, 7:02 PM

Originally Posted by Willfred

You guys seem to be missing my point. Some players, like Litchlol, are revolving most of their gear and rotation to get the most out of FoF, and I was just wondering whether it was worth it or not. I know how FoF works and I know how FoF is a ballbreaking but sometimes necessary skill.

With practice and precise positioning, you can use it in almost every situation, jus takes a bit of time getting used to it.
dont get me wrong there is still some exceptions.

Im unclear on where its best to use above RSK or not, but until proven otherwise i will keep it on top prio