Windwalker (DPS): a flurry of tender fisting. - Page 3

DerIdiot · 04/15/12, 12:14 AM

Regarding the DoT from Blackout Kick, should we be concerned with clipping? I haven't been able to get into the beta in a few days to test it out and do some math, but I assume we wouldn't want to clip it... Not sure if anyone else has done any math on it yet though.

Vuez · 04/16/12, 4:13 AM

At present, clipping is a non-issue as the dot damage accumulates into larger ticks. One thing to note is the dot is capable of critting, meaning blackout kick double dips from your crit.

Stu · 04/16/12, 5:52 PM

Originally Posted by Vuez

At present, clipping is a non-issue as the dot damage accumulates into larger ticks.

Do you have numbers to back this up? Just from quick tests, this has not been the case. A new dot will overwrite the previous one, whether it's a stronger hit or a weaker one, and is based off the damage the kick itself dealt. From what i've witnessed, there is no "rolling" dot effect.

Vuez · 04/16/12, 11:56 PM

Just tested it again, it does indeed stack. From a regular single crit of Blackout kick, I saw 3k or so ticks. But on boss fights, you have a little more time to chain lots together, particularly with popping Jinyu Cider. Its not complex to test, just run a dungeon and you can plainly see 9k odd ticks of the blackout kick debuff if you spam many consecutively. Im not sure a WoL analysis is necessary considering this takes 10minutes to test.

From what I can see, the blackout kick dot works exactly the same as the Holy Priest Mastery or Rogue 2piece T12. However, it crits.

Another interesting mechanic is Tigers Eye Brew. The attacks done to additional targets are not based on your primary target. Meaning, if your current target is on 60% and the secondary target is on 40% health - Tiger Palm will hit for 150% on your current target and only 100% for your secondary target.

Stu · 04/17/12, 12:07 AM

You are correct. I did some further and more extensive runs today and it does roll up the dot for damage.

Portrero · 04/17/12, 7:21 AM

Originally Posted by Vuez

At present, clipping is a non-issue as the dot damage accumulates into larger ticks. One thing to note is the dot is capable of critting, meaning blackout kick double dips from your crit.

I wouldn't say it's "double dipping," double dipping is when one abilty gets multiple chances to check the same statistic. As far as I can see, it's checking just once for the primary damage and then checking for the DoT damage, so the primary damage component can crit or the dot can crit, or both, or neither.

Vuez · 04/17/12, 8:57 AM

What you just described is exactly what this ability is doing, double dipping. Blackout Kick in its current for is a little similar to Scourge Strike, except the shadow portion is in the form of a dot. There was a time (all 2 days of it) around ICC's launch when the shadow portion of Scourge Strike could crit. The result as you can imagine, were insane. This was double dipping, and is exactly what Blackout Kick is doing atm. The Hemo Glyph does the same thing which makes it very powerful, except it doesn't stack from additional hemo's.

Ruinam · 04/17/12, 11:23 AM

This is different from scourge strike in the sense that scourge strike dealt a percentage of the damage done as shadow as opposed to (I believe) a percentage of your AP.

This meant a crit on the physical portion led to a larger shadow damage portion, which could then also crit, effectively letting the shadow damage see double benefit from crit. As it stands now (though my understanding of the mechanic may be wrong) BoK calculates dot damage separate from the initial damage meaning that while crit is calculated twice, no single portion sees the crit affect it more than once.

Daler · 04/17/12, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Vuez

What you just described is exactly what this ability is doing, double dipping. Blackout Kick in its current for is a little similar to Scourge Strike, except the shadow portion is in the form of a dot. There was a time (all 2 days of it) around ICC's launch when the shadow portion of Scourge Strike could crit. The result as you can imagine, were insane. This was double dipping, and is exactly what Blackout Kick is doing atm. The Hemo Glyph does the same thing which makes it very powerful, except it doesn't stack from additional hemo's.

Blackout Kick - Spells - WOWDB

The spell data indicates that the DoT portion of Blackout Kick is not tied to the initial strike. That means that it is not double-dipping on critical strike rating. Just because an ability can trigger a DoT that can crit doesn't mean that it's double dipping. Double dipping would be where a critical strike with the initial ability triggers DoT ticks of a greater magnitude than a regular hit. Those DoTs critting would then be double-dipping.

Scourge Strike double-dipping is/was due to the Shadow Portion being a % of the initial physical strike (similarly with Deep Wounds and Ignite). E.g., (assume one disease for simplicity) if SS's Physical portion is X, then its Shadow is 0.18X. If SS crits for 2X, then the Shadow portion is 0.36X (2X * 0.18). However, if the Shadow Portion can crit also, then you're looking at 0.72X (2X * 0.18 * 2), since it's doubling of the damage based on the initial strike. That's double-dipping, as the shadow portion just hit for 400% its initial value on a crit instead of the standard 200% crit.

Shinaruh · 04/17/12, 11:55 AM

Last night I was seeing larger ticks of the BoK dot after 'applying' successive BoK's, but my question is this- when performing back-to-back BoK's and refreshing the dot on the target, is anybody else seeing the ticks being delayed after each new application? Perusing the combat log, it seemed like I was only seeing a tick immediately after the BoK itself. If this is happening, in a case where the target is under 50% health and close to death, would using RSK on CD (rather than just using it to refresh the debuff) be more beneficial than firing off several BoK's due to the increased front-loaded damage?

Hidden · 04/17/12, 7:53 PM

If the DoT now stacks as suggested then it was added with the last patch, since my testing when the DoT was first introduced definitely didn't show such behavior. Back then the DoT damage was also independant on the initial damage, and thus there was no double dipping.

The now visible damage calculations for skills also roughly match my initial calculations if you go by relative values to each other - so if the DoT now really works properly, my initial conclusion still stands and there'll be absolutely no reason to use RSK for anything but its debuff and maybe burst phases.

Vuez · 04/17/12, 11:14 PM

Yes totally correct. Have tested this again and its definitely independant of the initial Blackout Kick.

Illu · 04/21/12, 11:10 PM

On the 2nd talent tier.

I was thinking earlier, won't Power Strikes almost always be the better choice over Jinyu cider for PvE, even for burst scenarios? The fact that the surplus chi becomes Chi spheres -not appearing on top of you- means you can store up up to +3 chi for whenever you need to burst, making it like a slightly less easy to use Jinyu cider but with the slight perk of gaining more Chi over time. It's also not very tricky to game the jab use to get that sphere if you want to every 15 sec, with 1 sec gcds.

I've observed the sphere behaviour and they always appear near the target/you so far, not exactly making it a hassle to touch them.

Thinking about it, it'll probably be on a fight by fight basis. After all, you'll probably not end up with a Chi sphere on the first jab, unless you always get 2 Chi before a boss pull.

Disargeria · 04/22/12, 12:51 AM

It's hilariously imbalanced because it completely negates Ascendance by forming Chi spheres, so something in that tier is going to change.

Draugdae · 05/04/12, 2:45 PM

Logged a run of Stormstout Brewery today. Looking at Blackout Kick we can clearly see that it is not stacking linearly at least.

[13:42:48.368] Daecaran Blackout Kick Hoptallus *31950*
[13:42:48.368] Hoptallus afflicted by Blackout Kick from Daecaran
[13:42:50.368] Daecaran Blackout Kick Hoptallus 3195
[13:42:51.318] Daecaran casts Blackout Kick on Hoptallus
[13:42:51.578] Daecaran Blackout Kick Hoptallus 17787
[13:42:51.578] Hoptallus's Blackout Kick is refreshed by Daecaran
[13:42:52.358] Daecaran Blackout Kick Hoptallus 4266

[13:48:33.098] Daecaran Blackout Kick Yan-Zhu the Uncasked 14358
[13:48:33.098] Yan-Zhu the Uncasked afflicted by Blackout Kick from Daecaran
[13:48:35.088] Daecaran Blackout Kick Yan-Zhu the Uncasked 2871
[13:48:37.028] Daecaran casts Blackout Kick on Yan-Zhu the Uncasked
[13:48:37.088] Daecaran Blackout Kick Yan-Zhu the Uncasked *32680*
[13:48:37.088] Yan-Zhu the Uncasked's Blackout Kick is refreshed by Daecaran
[13:48:37.088] Daecaran Blackout Kick Yan-Zhu the Uncasked *6338*
[13:48:39.088] Daecaran Blackout Kick Yan-Zhu the Uncasked *6338*
[13:48:41.068] Daecaran Blackout Kick Yan-Zhu the Uncasked 3169
[13:48:43.089] Daecaran Blackout Kick Yan-Zhu the Uncasked 3169

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