Windwalker (DPS): a flurry of tender fisting. - Page 30

Jezz · 12/04/12, 7:40 PM

Originally Posted by Littch

With practice and precise positioning, you can use it in almost every situation, jus takes a bit of time getting used to it.
dont get me wrong there is still some exceptions.

Im unclear on where its best to use above RSK or not, but until proven otherwise i will keep it on top prio

There are many exceptions, on-top of the usual problem of the boss moving, on a fight like Blade Lord heroic there is simply not enough up-time on the boss to frequently get the sweet spot where you want to use it. On fights where there are other mobs in melee range that you don't want to damage, you can't use it, you very rarely get an opportunity to use it on Wind Lord heroic, you can't use it for the majority of the fight on Amber-shaper and you can't really use it for a whole phase on Shekzeer.

Littch · 12/04/12, 7:48 PM

Originally Posted by Jezz

There are many exceptions, on-top of the usual problem of the boss moving, on a fight like Blade Lord heroic there is simply not enough up-time on the boss to frequently get the sweet spot where you want to use it. On fights where there are other mobs in melee range that you don't want to damage, you can't use it, you very rarely get an opportunity to use it on Wind Lord heroic, you can't use it for the majority of the fight on Amber-shaper and you can't really use it for a whole phase on Shekzeer.

explain to me why please.

Windlord = it doesnt stun the adds, ive tested, not on heroic ofc, but it doesnt break CC, our AoE seems to scale better with crit than haste anyways.

Ambershaper, it doesnt stun the amber dudes that get transformed at all, it gives the stun effect above there heads but doesnt actually stun the target.

Sheeker, havent looked into this fight on heroic yet, but presuming you mean the add phase, i cant understand why you wouldnt want to use it anyways for the AoE stun (i could be totally wrong here so dont judge)

edit - Going bladelord tomorow, will test your theory on not being able to get into the Sweet spot, if i can pull it off will get some logs up

Crevan · 12/04/12, 8:45 PM

On Windlord heroic, you will spend most of the time using SCK and RJW during the aoe phase (which is most of the fight). During the boss burn phase, you can use FoF safely if you want to, but the damage will be shared with the adds around him. Whether or not that's a good thing, I haven't checked on our first kill. If the 600% damage bonus is applied to the portion of FoF that the adds take, it will probably be worth it.

There's a lot of movement on Amber Shaper, so whether or not you can use FoF all the time will be kinda random.

Shekzeer - FoF is fine when you're on the boss; add phase is again SCK spam.

Blade Lord - I kinda agree, he's an annoying boss for melee. If he charges a ranged to apply the dot or goes Unseen Strike mode while you're channelling FoF, you're screwed.

Regarding the FoF vs RSK priority - fists should be doing more damage per chi spent (according to my own logs). So, if you're using both on cooldown, giving FoF higher priority is not a bad idea.

Littch · 12/04/12, 9:24 PM

Originally Posted by Crevan

On Windlord heroic, you will spend most of the time using SCK and RJW during the aoe phase (which is most of the fight). During the boss burn phase, you can use FoF safely if you want to, but the damage will be shared with the adds around him. Whether or not that's a good thing, I haven't checked on our first kill. If the 600% damage bonus is applied to the portion of FoF that the adds take, it will probably be worth it.

There's a lot of movement on Amber Shaper, so whether or not you can use FoF all the time will be kinda random.

Shekzeer - FoF is fine when you're on the boss; add phase is again SCK spam.

Blade Lord - I kinda agree, he's an annoying boss for melee. If he charges a ranged to apply the dot or goes Unseen Strike mode while you're channelling FoF, you're screwed.

Regarding the FoF vs RSK priority - fists should be doing more damage per chi spent (according to my own logs). So, if you're using both on cooldown, giving FoF higher priority is not a bad idea.

ive been thinking the same around windlord, guna use garalon as an example here, ive noticed since i switched back to using FoF, that on that fight, it seems when you use FoF on the legs, it hits his main part with the 100% damage increase from the legs. i cant say im right completely on this. but may need further testing.

just 1 thing i want to point out about FoF usage what i think a lot of people are overlooking. you can turn it mid cast if a boss moves for example, if its predictable move infront of the boss around the same time its about to move, then start casting it and turn your camera as it walks/runs past. this way you still get the full 5 ticks (unless you get unlucky and parried ofc). this is kinda what i meant about precise positioning. as long as you think about it before, you will always get proper use out of it

eekon · 12/04/12, 9:36 PM

Originally Posted by Crevan

Regarding the FoF vs RSK priority - fists should be doing more damage per chi spent (according to my own logs). So, if you're using both on cooldown, giving FoF higher priority is not a bad idea.

Well, what matters is if FoF does more damage/chi than RSK+ the 4.7-something seconds of autoattack damage you lose, which I'm not entirely sure it does.

Is no one else pissed off at our set bonuses?

jaydsterc2 · 12/04/12, 11:37 PM

Originally Posted by eekon

Well, what matters is if FoF does more damage/chi than RSK+ the 4.7-something seconds of autoattack damage you lose, which I'm not entirely sure it does.

Is no one else pissed off at our set bonuses?

I hated 2pc until they fixed FoF but 4pc is COMPLETELY useless. After 5.1 I'm running 6700 haste and I NEVER run out of energy I almost never use Energizing brew due to having no problem managing my energy.

Someone earlier mentioned something about capping energy while using FoF... I would definitely use FoF even if it's going to energy cap me.

Willfred · 12/05/12, 3:41 AM

Originally Posted by Littch

just 1 thing i want to point out about FoF usage what i think a lot of people are overlooking. you can turn it mid cast if a boss moves for example, if its predictable move infront of the boss around the same time its about to move, then start casting it and turn your camera as it walks/runs past. this way you still get the full 5 ticks (unless you get unlucky and parried ofc). this is kinda what i meant about precise positioning. as long as you think about it before, you will always get proper use out of it

Which brings me back to the thing I really wanted to know. Is it worth it to use FoF on Cooldown (and therefor reforging/regemming your gear to get maximum damage output out of FoF), is it that much of a DPS increase on fights? Don't get me wrong, but you seem to be revolving everything around FoF atm, as if they totally revamped the ability in 5.1. As far as I see it, they only fixed one of the many flaws, making it still a pretty bad ability that should only be used when you are in a position to do so.

Jezz · 12/05/12, 4:18 AM

Originally Posted by Littch

explain to me why please.

Windlord = it doesnt stun the adds, ive tested, not on heroic ofc, but it doesnt break CC, our AoE seems to scale better with crit than haste anyways.

Ambershaper, it doesnt stun the amber dudes that get transformed at all, it gives the stun effect above there heads but doesnt actually stun the target.

Sheeker, havent looked into this fight on heroic yet, but presuming you mean the add phase, i cant understand why you wouldnt want to use it anyways for the AoE stun (i could be totally wrong here so dont judge)

edit - Going bladelord tomorow, will test your theory on not being able to get into the Sweet spot, if i can pull it off will get some logs up

Because these fights have targets next to you that you don't want to damage, that's the point. You don't want to be hitting the amber dudes, you don't want to be hitting amber-shaper while he takes reduced damage, you don't want to be splitting your damage between Wind Lord and the adds when recklessness is up and you don't want to be damaging the add that is going to be trapped on Shekzeer. You can use the ability and your DPS will be as good as always (apart from during phase 2 of amber-shaper), but a portion of DPS will be spread to targets that you aren't meant to be damaging.

As for bladelord, I'm definitely not saying it's impossible but that you get the opportunity to use it much less frequently considering he goes away every 10 seconds or so.

Crevan · 12/05/12, 9:11 AM

Originally Posted by eekon

what matters is if FoF does more damage/chi than RSK+ the 4.7-something seconds of autoattack damage you lose, which I'm not entirely sure it does.

Not quite true. This would matter if we had a choice of completely substituting every FoF for a RSK. Since in this particular situation we are going to use both abilities, the 4 seconds of passive damage will be lost regardless of our priority.

And if you're really curious, FoF does almost 20% more damage than our passive attacks over 4 seconds plus a RSK.

AbsolutRayne · 12/05/12, 9:21 AM

So as I'm understanding it, looking through all the discussions here, I'm probably way overvaluing Haste for myself at the current moment.

As of last night, I broke 8k Haste going full Haste reforge, Mostly Deft gems, etc. My 4 Piece is basically capping me on Energy so hard I have no idea what to do with it at this point.

Does anyone happen to have flat values on stats once you reach about 7000 Haste? Apologies if it's already in this thread, I didn't notice it on a quick run-through of the last 8-10 pages.

Mihir · 12/05/12, 11:34 AM

Try converting haste to crit until you don't get energy capped at any point anymore.

tastysnack · 12/05/12, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by jaydsterc2

I hated 2pc until they fixed FoF but 4pc is COMPLETELY useless. After 5.1 I'm running 6700 haste and I NEVER run out of energy I almost never use Energizing brew due to having no problem managing my energy.

Someone earlier mentioned something about capping energy while using FoF... I would definitely use FoF even if it's going to energy cap me.

You'll have much better numbers if you dump some of that into crit. I was running with just south of 7K haste, and had the same issue - I ran some SimC, and reforgeplots showed that just picking up another 1K crit (and dumping around 500 haste/500 mastery - it brought me to around 15% mastery, 6K haste, and 31% crit) would give me another 2K DPS (a nice tradeoff). It means that I'm more inclined to use EB on CD, and I use FoF (roughly) on CD when pooling energy between EBs. It's really improved QoL and such - with the change to Ascension, rocking out at 7K haste isn't as necessary (other than its lack of DR, so it's still good to stack). Point being, you're probably at a point where you can shed some haste into crit.

Saltycracker · 12/05/12, 2:29 PM

Originally Posted by tastysnack

You'll have much better numbers if you dump some of that into crit. I was running with just south of 7K haste, and had the same issue - I ran some SimC, and reforgeplots showed that just picking up another 1K crit (and dumping around 500 haste/500 mastery - it brought me to around 15% mastery, 6K haste, and 31% crit) would give me another 2K DPS (a nice tradeoff). It means that I'm more inclined to use EB on CD, and I use FoF (roughly) on CD when pooling energy between EBs. It's really improved QoL and such - with the change to Ascension, rocking out at 7K haste isn't as necessary (other than its lack of DR, so it's still good to stack). Point being, you're probably at a point where you can shed some haste into crit.

Useless is a strong word. The more energy/haste you have, the less you will use/need mastery procs. Too much haste/mastery means that you will eventually push Tiger Palm mastery procs off the table (unless refreshing the buff) and even more haste will start to push BOK mastery procs off the table. Haste increases your melee damage, and gives you Tiger Strike procs. Haste will certainly increase your DPS, but is it enough to offset having "too much energy"?

Interesting thought, would you ever use a BOK proc instead of jabbing at energy cap to increase your DPS?

tastysnack · 12/05/12, 3:41 PM

Originally Posted by Saltycracker

Useless is a strong word. The more energy/haste you have, the less you will use/need mastery procs. Too much haste/mastery means that you will eventually push Tiger Palm mastery procs off the table (unless refreshing the buff) and even more haste will start to push BOK mastery procs off the table. Haste increases your melee damage, and gives you Tiger Strike procs. Haste will certainly increase your DPS, but is it enough to offset having "too much energy"?

Interesting thought, would you ever use a BOK proc instead of jabbing at energy cap to increase your DPS?

That's a really good point, and a great question. I also agree with you that "useless" is a strong word - keeping in mind that it wasn't my language. I've actually found 4piece to be quite useful, myself, and I saw gains once I had the 2pc.

TP: I don't use these procs unless my buff is about to fall off, OR I don't have the chi to use BoK OR RSK OR FoF (>4 chi, in other words - perhaps its a waste, but I don't ever like being at 0-1 chi, simply because I want to be able to use RSK and FoF at the best moment possible). It still does double the damage of Jab, therefore even energy capping, it's still going to be the best choice (I'd assume).

BoK procs are still useful, and I think that's a question I'm going to have to sim out and play with a bit. The setup I have is pretty new, but I think what you also need to keep in mind that (at least for me) the average jab hits for 16K while the average BoK hits for around 80k. BoK would still win, even if I'm about to energy cap (and given that mastery procs from jab, that doesn't mean I don't have chi). Edit: By which I mean, even if I hit energy cap, using BoK's mastery proc would still take precedence over a jab (and the change at two BoK's in a row).

I think mastery is important in terms of being able to use TP mastery to refresh your buff and in terms of being able to have a larger amount of crit. Early on, I found it especially useful to be able to pool energy with said procs up until I was rocking out at 6K haste - which is roughly when 5.1 hit, and I no longer EVER felt energy starved.

Here's my current reforge plot:

So the way I'm interpreting it (and PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong, I DO NOT want wrong information floating around), mastery has a flatline in gains for me at the moment, so I'll (edit: I will NOT) continue to benefit from more of it. However, crit has begun to overtake haste in its usefulness - but the margin of that overtake is so darn small that honestly (and, I don't think it's taking Power Strikes into consideration), my stat priority becomes the following:

Hit/Exp (7.5%) > Crit = Haste > Mastery

Which I apologize if that is a repost.

Saltycracker · 12/05/12, 4:08 PM

I think you are spot on in your analysis Alysmera.

The way I see it Ascension is too good of a talent choice for WW. You get more energy regen, and thereby more Chi and Mastery procs than the other talent choices at the moment. It's so good that with the tier bonuses, we have too much haste just with raid buffs. They would have to nerf mastery (which I'm fine with) to bring it back in line with the strength of the other talents.