Windwalker (DPS): a flurry of tender fisting. - Page 31

Qixy · 12/05/12, 4:23 PM

This is my first post but I read this forum (as well as several other of the classes) all of the time. I do pretty well parsing and with the changes to ascension I think people are still holding haste a little high. If you simcraft it haste is going to come out ahead most of the time, but you have to take into account the mechanics of most fights as well. Most encounters are not letting you just sit there and dps the boss for all eternity where you would need more haste.

When you take into account that most fights have you running out or the boss doing something where he is not able to be attacked or switching targets you are pooling energy, making the value of haste less and the value of crit more since crit is useful 100% of the time you are attacking and haste is less so due to EB and mastery procs keeping you higher if there is ever time you have to stop dpsing.

I feel the correct amount of haste is whatever amount keeps you from capping energy at any point using your BoK mastery procs and EB on CD, other then that you are going to want to put it into crit. If you are not using your mastery procs or your EB on CD then you are just wasting damage output. There are some fights where you can spend energy pretty quickly and keep spending it, such as shek'zeer, but they are rare and if you are working on that fight for heroic for the first time you can always reforge.

*Edit* Wanted to complain about having to pre-brew and the clunkiness of FoF on most fights like everyone else

Halens · 12/05/12, 4:34 PM

Originally Posted by tastysnack

That's a really good point, and a great question. I also agree with you that "useless" is a strong word - keeping in mind that it wasn't my language. I've actually found 4piece to be quite useful, myself, and I saw gains once I had the 2pc.

TP: I don't use these procs unless my buff is about to fall off, OR I don't have the chi to use BoK OR RSK OR FoF (>4 chi, in other words - perhaps its a waste, but I don't ever like being at 0-1 chi, simply because I want to be able to use RSK and FoF at the best moment possible). It still does double the damage of Jab, therefore even energy capping, it's still going to be the best choice (I'd assume).

BoK procs are still useful, and I think that's a question I'm going to have to sim out and play with a bit. The setup I have is pretty new, but I think what you also need to keep in mind that (at least for me) the average jab hits for 16K while the average BoK hits for around 80k. BoK would still win, even if I'm about to energy cap (and given that mastery procs from jab, that doesn't mean I don't have chi). Edit: By which I mean, even if I hit energy cap, using BoK's mastery proc would still take precedence over a jab (and the change at two BoK's in a row).

I think mastery is important in terms of being able to use TP mastery to refresh your buff and in terms of being able to have a larger amount of crit. Early on, I found it especially useful to be able to pool energy with said procs up until I was rocking out at 6K haste - which is roughly when 5.1 hit, and I no longer EVER felt energy starved.

Here's my current reforge plot:

So the way I'm interpreting it (and PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong, I DO NOT want wrong information floating around), mastery has a flatline in gains for me at the moment, so I'll (edit: I will NOT) continue to benefit from more of it. However, crit has begun to overtake haste in its usefulness - but the margin of that overtake is so darn small that honestly (and, I don't think it's taking Power Strikes into consideration), my stat priority becomes the following:

Hit/Exp (7.5%) > Crit = Haste > Mastery

Which I apologize if that is a repost.

I actually stopped using SimC to calculate my stat weights until it is more reliable in calculating FoF damage. I've basically taken the stance that I'm going full haste until I start noticing severe energy capping.

Last night was one of my first nights as WW, I had a blue heroic OH with wind song enchants. Here is the log:

Dashboard - 04-12 21:29 - She Looked Lvl Eighteen - World of Logs

A note, I don't consider myself and elite player I do make mistakes - I however merely wanted to point motivate someone to actually do the math behind what seems to be going on stat wise and let us stop relying on SimC for a while.

Obtained Gara'kal, Fist of the Spiritbinder. 18 hours ago

tastysnack · 12/05/12, 4:39 PM

Originally Posted by Qixy

I feel the correct amount of haste is whatever amount keeps you from capping energy at any point using your BoK mastery procs and EB on CD, other then that you are going to want to put it into crit. If you are not using your mastery procs or your EB on CD then you are just wasting damage output. There are some fights where you can spend energy pretty quickly and keep spending it, such as shek'zeer, but they are rare and if you are working on that fight for heroic for the first time you can always reforge.

I wanted to quote this because you're about half right. Haste isn't SIMPLY just for your energy return - it's also for quicker attack speed, in addition to procing your tiger strikes. That's why it's so incredibly valuable. Keep in mind, too, that 5.1 "fixes" FoF in order for it to scale with haste, adding some extra value to it.

Also, my analysis with simc is to take it, analyze it, and remember that it's not perfect. I don't feel it fully takes into account mastery procs at all - at least, not correctly.

However, you ARE correct that you shouldn't have so much that you can't use EB or FoF comfortably in a fight. I've found that the "sweet" spot for this is right around 5.5-6K (I am a troll at the moment, though, so I also have at least 2 Berserks per fight - when I switch back to Pandaren this weekend (for arbitrary reasons), I may find that I need a bit more). When I was at nearly 7K haste, I found that I just never had time to use mastery procs or EB - and that hurt me on parses. Greatly.

I myself made the mistake of holding haste too high and then not being able to use my CDs - and it hurt my parsing for it. I'm really looking forward to this lockout and seeing an overall increase.

I'd also like to not complain about FoF. With it now scaling with haste, I've found it very easy to time it with Hawkmaster's Talon (trinkets have been slim pickings for me) every other time, and Berserking every time I have that up. In addition, paying attention to boss timers just to time things perfectly (such as, someone mentioned Blade Lord's teleportation ability and Unseen Strike - those can be tracked rather easily). It hasn't caused me to energy cap where used appropriately.

Also, and I know this has been said before, but is there any way we can have the front post edited?

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Halens

I actually stopped using SimC to calculate my stat weights until it is more reliable in calculating FoF damage. I've basically taken the stance that I'm going full haste until I start noticing severe energy capping.

Read my post here - SimC has its value, but it shouldn't be taken at face-value. I do much of my theorycrafting through that + target dummies + LFR (having SOME mechanics is useful). I tried full haste, and it absolutely hurt because I had that severe energy capping, regardless of my actions per minute.

Halens · 12/05/12, 4:45 PM

Originally Posted by tastysnack

I wanted to quote this because you're about half right. Haste isn't SIMPLY just for your energy return - it's also for quicker attack speed, in addition to procing your tiger strikes. That's why it's so incredibly valuable. Keep in mind, too, that 5.1 "fixes" FoF in order for it to scale with haste, adding some extra value to it.

Also, my analysis with simc is to take it, analyze it, and remember that it's not perfect. I don't feel it fully takes into account mastery procs at all - at least, not correctly.

However, you ARE correct that you shouldn't have so much that you can't use EB or FoF comfortably in a fight. I've found that the "sweet" spot for this is right around 5.5-6K (I am a troll at the moment, though, so I also have at least 2 Berserks per fight - when I switch back to Pandaren this weekend (for arbitrary reasons), I may find that I need a bit more). When I was at nearly 7K haste, I found that I just never had time to use mastery procs or EB - and that hurt me on parses. Greatly.

I myself made the mistake of holding haste too high and then not being able to use my CDs - and it hurt my parsing for it. I'm really looking forward to this lockout and seeing an overall increase.

I'd also like to not complain about FoF. With it now scaling with haste, I've found it very easy to time it with Hawkmaster's Talon (trinkets have been slim pickings for me) every other time, and Berserking every time I have that up. In addition, paying attention to boss timers just to time things perfectly (such as, someone mentioned Blade Lord's teleportation ability and Unseen Strike - those can be tracked rather easily). It hasn't caused me to energy cap where used appropriately.

Also, and I know this has been said before, but is there any way we can have the front post edited?

EDIT:

Read my post here - SimC has its value, but it shouldn't be taken at face-value. I do much of my theorycrafting through that + target dummies + LFR (having SOME mechanics is useful). I tried full haste, and it absolutely hurt because I had that severe energy capping, regardless of my actions per minute.

It could very well be, that I have not hit those values of haste you had issues with due to gear, will take that into consideration. I sincerely and whole heatedly back your method of TC.

EDIT:

Are you 2H because that's what you have best available?

Saltycracker · 12/05/12, 7:09 PM

I'm going to be so bold and say that melee an tiger strikes scale equally with crit and haste.

You have a 8% chance to gain Tiger Strikes when you autoattack, increasing your attack speed by 50% and causing your next 4 autoattacks to cause an extra attack.

This equates in my mind as one tiger strike proc being with 6 additional white swings. In reality this buff is spread out over the next few attacks, but for this let's assume all the attacks on your next hit, so you have an 8% chance for your next swing to cause 7x damage. This damage is also modified by crit.

Tiger Strikes scales with haste and crit evenly % for %.

Halens · 12/05/12, 7:34 PM

Originally Posted by Saltycracker

I'm going to be so bold and say that melee an tiger strikes scale equally with crit and haste.

This equates in my mind as one tiger strike proc being with 6 additional white swings. In reality this buff is spread out over the next few attacks, but for this let's assume all the attacks on your next hit, so you have an 8% chance for your next swing to cause 7x damage. This damage is also modified by crit.

Tiger Strikes scales with haste and crit evenly % for %.

So how would you translate this in terms of gearing if you even could?

Burtreginald · 12/05/12, 9:50 PM

Hi there, first post on here but have a few valid arguments.

First off, I never use FoF, cause unless used perfectly and under good conditions it's not enough of a gain(personally) to warrant using it. This is in my current gear which is 496 ilvl. Rocking about 5k haste 5k crit.

Windwalker Monk rankings for Elegon - Mogu'shan Vaults - World of Logs

That's the only log I can provide as my guild logs privately but I have numerous rank1 and most fights in the top 10 at least.
And that's with my current gear, no use of FoF, might be something for y'all to look at. Works well for me, rarely capping unless unavoidable, rarely starved (using eb on cd unless lust is up or trinket icd/tb is almost ready.

Windwalker Monk rankings for Elegon - Mogu'shan Vaults - World of Logs

Fixed, now you have TWO logs of Elegon without FoF use.

Halens · 12/05/12, 11:16 PM

Originally Posted by Burtreginald

Hi there, first post on here but have a few valid arguments.

First off, I never use FoF, cause unless used perfectly and under good conditions it's not enough of a gain(personally) to warrant using it. This is in my current gear which is 496 ilvl. Rocking about 5k haste 5k crit.

Windwalker Monk rankings for Elegon - Mogu'shan Vaults - World of Logs

That's the only log I can provide as my guild logs privately but I have numerous rank1 and most fights in the top 10 at least.
And that's with my current gear, no use of FoF, might be something for y'all to look at. Works well for me, rarely capping unless unavoidable, rarely starved (using eb on cd unless lust is up or trinket icd/tb is almost ready.

Burt.

Finally, someone who uses their brain over a simulator.

Qixy · 12/05/12, 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by tastysnack

I wanted to quote this because you're about half right. Haste isn't SIMPLY just for your energy return - it's also for quicker attack speed, in addition to procing your tiger strikes. That's why it's so incredibly valuable. Keep in mind, too, that 5.1 "fixes" FoF in order for it to scale with haste, adding some extra value to it.

I am aware that it is more then just your regen, that is why I said it is useful, but not 100% useful all of the time if you have higher amounts of it. Where as crit is useful 100% of the time on all fights.

*Edit sorry for fail quote

fr0d0b0ls0n · 12/06/12, 3:17 AM

Originally Posted by Halens

Finally, someone who uses their brain over a simulator.

Personal experience can perfectly mean nothing. And usually does. If Burt can do great dps without FoF doesn't mean he'll do less damage using it correctly. It just mean he has a great skill, inflates the meter and/or had good luck on the single log we can see. Maybe it also means FoF isn't needed but this is not conclusive by any means.

Also Elegon is a fight where strat means everything, is not a boss where you can compare dps easily for rotation conclusions. The top monk dps in that fight (Moozh right now) uses Fists of Fury, but also has to soak a Total Annihilation (Burt doesnt), does no aoe (not in charge of killing Energy Charge), kills Celestial Protectors (another dps loss, 4m Moozh, 60k Burt) and resets Overcharged frequently.

Halens · 12/06/12, 6:28 AM

Originally Posted by fr0d0b0ls0n

Personal experience can perfectly mean nothing. And usually does.

So you're telling me a simulator that isn't properly calculating ability damage and is recreating a "perfect" attempt does mean something over raw personal experience?

Littch · 12/06/12, 6:38 AM

can we stop using elegon as a dps test please, its utter shit with mechanics and damage boosts.

if we want a proper damage test flat out, log yourself, que lfr spirit binder and dont go in the totems at all.

sorry for my language, but linking rank 1s on a fight like that only means you was able to do the max damage with your raids tactics. not all of us get that privalidge. i mean if you get to tunnel boss pretty much whole fight, with 50% damage boost from ring, plus all the damage boosts from sparks you are guna get rank 1. its as simple as that

fr0d0b0ls0n · 12/06/12, 6:47 AM

Originally Posted by Halens

So you're telling me a simulator that isn't properly calculating ability damage and is recreating a "perfect" attempt does mean something over raw personal experience?

No, I'm not telling you that. But with personal experience you need multiple iterations, and test every possible rotation to conclude something, not only 1 rotation. That's why simulators are needed when they are perfected as you'll never have 1000 Elegon logs with the same gear for each possible rotation. Is like I eat a couple pears and I post that the pear is the sweetest fruit ever. Maybe it is, but few will believe me.

And as Littch says, Gara'kal is a best rotation test anyway.

Bemxuu · 12/06/12, 7:33 AM

So, Burt wasn't the first on logs despite the next place was switching to Protectors and resetting stacks. I think that kinda proves the benefits of FoF.

Crevan · 12/06/12, 8:15 AM

You are assuming that the SimC model is absolutely wrong, which it is not. Every class mechanic that we care about is tested in-game before it is coded into simulation tools. We don't know the exact mechanics and models Blizzard is using, but a little reverse-engineering and testing can give us a good enough approximation. You should also remember that any simcraft output is only as good as you set it up to be, and should be interpreted accordingly. If you use a "Patchwerk" profile, don't start shouting that it's wrong because your dps on Spirit Kings or Valiona & Theralion was totally different.