Windwalker (DPS): a flurry of tender fisting. - Page 32

tastysnack · 12/06/12, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Halens

Are you 2H because that's what you have best available?

Correct. This means that my stat weight for Crit is slightly higher than if I were DW, but by a (relatively) negligible amount (due to receiving 40% attack speed already). When I am DW, Haste will edge out - but only slightly.

Originally Posted by Crevan

You are assuming that the SimC model is absolutely wrong, which it is not. Every class mechanic that we care about is tested in-game before it is coded into simulation tools. We don't know the exact mechanics and models Blizzard is using, but a little reverse-engineering and testing can give us a good enough approximation. You should also remember that any simcraft output is only as good as you set it up to be, and should be interpreted accordingly. If you use a "Patchwerk" profile, don't start shouting that it's wrong because your dps on Spirit Kings or Valiona & Theralion was totally different.

Precisely this. I think SimC for monk started out with some serious issues, but overtime it's become much more accurate thanks to development. Other people's mileage for SimC varies by how willing you are to look into how to edit options and what they mean. The things I pay attention to might be different than what you pay attention to - I mostly look at which stats are providing me the best benefit, and how my energy fairs during a fight (if I shed X amount of haste, will I be energy starved? What if I drop the on-use trinket?) In addition, comparing how much damage certain items I receive will give me - should I use this weapon over that? Is this trinket better itemized? Given that I'm prone to human error on test dummies, it's nice to have something automated to look into that for me without having to drop the gold on reforges etc. Also, I've never had it be too far off mark with the average non-critical hit for my skills.

Elegon is a terrible fight to compare Monk DPS to. Not only do you receive a damage buff, but strats differ. For example, we have our melee switch to protectors because otherwise Elegon would be pushed into Spark phase while our second protector is dying. Other people who don't need to switch off of the boss would probably outrank me on this fight, since I am switching to Protectors, energy charges, etc. and that there are seconds at a time where we stop DPS to prevent pushing the boss into the next phase for several reasons.

FoF is silly to discuss. I believe we already have 10 pages of argument over whether or not to use it, so I'm just going to state what's already been said: It's a benefit if you have time to use it and aren't going to have to lose a tick. Its usage is what will set people apart.

Moozhe · 12/06/12, 1:52 PM

Originally Posted by fr0d0b0ls0n

Personal experience can perfectly mean nothing. And usually does. If Burt can do great dps without FoF doesn't mean he'll do less damage using it correctly. It just mean he has a great skill, inflates the meter and/or had good luck on the single log we can see. Maybe it also means FoF isn't needed but this is not conclusive by any means.

Also Elegon is a fight where strat means everything, is not a boss where you can compare dps easily for rotation conclusions. The top monk dps in that fight (Moozh right now) uses Fists of Fury, but also has to soak a Total Annihilation (Burt doesnt), does no aoe (not in charge of killing Energy Charge), kills Celestial Protectors (another dps loss, 4m Moozh, 60k Burt) and resets Overcharged frequently.

Burt was also being fed Tricks of the Trade.

As others said, Elegon is not a fight in which to compare theorycrafting principles.

And post 5.1 nobody of sound mind is advocating completely taking Fists of Fury off their bars and not using it. The questions that need to be asked are when to use it and when not to use it.

- Some are suggesting our priority should be FoF > RSK > BOK
- Some are suggesting that we should delay RSK by a certain threshold to use FoF (0.5-1.5 seconds)
- Some are suggesting to ignore Tiger Palm mastery procs to use FoF
- Some are suggesting to gear with less haste and more crit in order to be able to use FoF more often
- Some are suggesting to allow a certain threshold of energy capping in order to use FoF (0.5-2 seconds of wasted energy)

These are topics worth discussing. A suggestion to not use FoF at all by someone being fed Tricks of the Trade is hardly constructive.

Dopameany · 12/06/12, 1:56 PM

So, assuming the accepted logic of "around" 6k haste to be comfortable, how is it that people like justmonk <method> and/or ninecatz <blood legion> are running with 4-4.5k haste *as panda* and much higher (7-8k) crit and getting top parses? It's got to be nearly FULL use of EB, FoF, and mastery procs. Doesn't really seem logical to design a dps class with an ability (FoF), and cool down (EB) and mastery that, when doing good dps, are phased out by haste levels. When's the last time a class had a 2pc bonus for something they may or may not use? Just seems crit is very undervalued by most monks ATM.

Jezz · 12/06/12, 2:08 PM

Originally Posted by Dopameany

So, assuming the accepted logic of "around" 6k haste to be comfortable, how is it that people like justmonk <method> and/or ninecatz <blood legion> are running with 4-4.5k haste *as panda* and much higher (7-8k) crit and getting top parses? It's got to be nearly FULL use of EB, FoF, and mastery procs. Doesn't really seem logical to design a dps class with an ability (FoF), and cool down (EB) and mastery that, when doing good dps, are phased out by haste levels. When's the last time a class had a 2pc bonus for something they may or may not use? Just seems crit is very undervalued by most monks ATM.

The problem is that you're looking at one variable which is haste vs crit, there a ton of other variables at play. Monk is a new class and WW is a melee DPS spec that brings very little to the raid, for that reason I would imagine we are some-what under-represented especially in really hardcore guilds. Gear level is a huge factor, only 92 guilds in the world have access to our best in slot weapons, the monks who do obviously have a better shot at top parses. On top of that there's the strategy you're using, how good a kill you had, how quickly your raid is killing the boss.

I'm not disagreeing with your point though, I am much preferring full crit to full haste or even somewhere in-between and I'm doing pretty decently on WoL but that alone is not really indicative of anything.

tastysnack · 12/06/12, 3:45 PM

Originally Posted by Jezz

The problem is that you're looking at one variable which is haste vs crit, there a ton of other variables at play. Monk is a new class and WW is a melee DPS spec that brings very little to the raid, for that reason I would imagine we are some-what under-represented especially in really hardcore guilds. Gear level is a huge factor, only 92 guilds in the world have access to our best in slot weapons, the monks who do obviously have a better shot at top parses. On top of that there's the strategy you're using, how good a kill you had, how quickly your raid is killing the boss.

I'm not disagreeing with your point though, I am much preferring full crit to full haste or even somewhere in-between and I'm doing pretty decently on WoL but that alone is not really indicative of anything.

If they brought nothing to the raid, I doubt that high-end guilds would bother recruiting them. We're very strong on single-target fights. In addition, our WWs typically top the meters (just under mages) on fights such as Mel'jarak and Empress (provided everything goes right - aren't trapped, etc.).

Originally Posted by Dopameany

So, assuming the accepted logic of "around" 6k haste to be comfortable, how is it that people like justmonk <method> and/or ninecatz <blood legion> are running with 4-4.5k haste *as panda* and much higher (7-8k) crit and getting top parses? It's got to be nearly FULL use of EB, FoF, and mastery procs. Doesn't really seem logical to design a dps class with an ability (FoF), and cool down (EB) and mastery that, when doing good dps, are phased out by haste levels. When's the last time a class had a 2pc bonus for something they may or may not use? Just seems crit is very undervalued by most monks ATM.

I'm actually noticing that most of the higher-ranking monks are either Human or Pandaren - which could mean absolutely nothing, or could mean that Berserking isn't as sweet as I'd like to think it is. I'll set up a sim for it tonight, but my current sims are all giving me statweights of 1.33 for crit and 1.30 for haste - telling me that they're roughly even, but crit is ever so slightly more valuable. (I ran this as both 2H and DW, and did not see terribly much difference between the results). This means the Pandaren racial would end up being more valuable than the Troll's by some small margin, due to the extra 300 agi giving crit.

Eeinx · 12/06/12, 3:48 PM

Originally Posted by tastysnack

Precisely this. I think SimC for monk started out with some serious issues, but overtime it's become much more accurate thanks to development.

IT DID. :P

It wasn't easy either. I was a relatively amatuer C++ programmer jumping into a huge project from the ground up. Since nothing played well with nearly anything that was already programmed, I couldn't just copy paste many of the things from other modules.

Plus the nightmare changes at the beginning. Spending (many many many) sleepness nights sorting out weapon damage calculation and other things to play nice in the sim then having it changed a couple weeks later.

Everything I've included in the sim is game tested for accuracy. I've drooled countless hours over logs and debug parses to ensure that its acting exactly as it does in the game.

Hell, even with the FoF bug when it was around, I coded that into the sim.

...And i'm maining brewmaster right now /cry

Originally Posted by tastysnack

I'm actually noticing that most of the higher-ranking monks are either Human or Pandaren - which could mean absolutely nothing, or could mean that Berserking isn't as sweet as I'd like to think it is. I'll set up a sim for it tonight, but my current sims are all giving me statweights of 1.33 for crit and 1.30 for haste - telling me that they're roughly even, but crit is ever so slightly more valuable. (I ran this as both 2H and DW, and did not see terribly much difference between the results). This means the Pandaren racial would end up being more valuable than the Troll's by some small margin, due to the extra 300 agi giving crit.

I actually saw you were using a 2h. They usually give pretty different weights in comparison to haste, so mileage may vary vs DW

We're still trying to figure out the major variation in stat scaling at different haste levels and whether energy capping in specific situations is a DPS gain. Right now we're assuming its not because of how other energy classes work, but you never now.

Originally Posted by tastysnack

I'm actually noticing that most of the higher-ranking monks are either Human or Pandaren - which could mean absolutely nothing, or could mean that Berserking isn't as sweet as I'd like to think it is.

The gap isn't very large, so generally people are playing pandaren because of the food buff benefits. Also its one less thing to worry about at the loss of a microscopic amount of dps.

Originally Posted by Moozhe

- Some are suggesting our priority should be FoF > RSK > BOK
- Some are suggesting that we should delay RSK by a certain threshold to use FoF (0.5-1.5 seconds)
- Some are suggesting to ignore Tiger Palm mastery procs to use FoF
- Some are suggesting to gear with less haste and more crit in order to be able to use FoF more often
- Some are suggesting to allow a certain threshold of energy capping in order to use FoF (0.5-2 seconds of wasted energy)

These are all good observations i'll forward to gahhda when working on the new profiles.
I'm very curious about allowing energy capping, putting fof higher in priority, and gearing variation.
Like i've said a hundred times before, something seems really wrong at the moment with stat scaling on ww; and i'm pointing fingers at the profile right now (even though gahhda has already made appropriate changes to test and it doesn't make a difference). I may reccomend simplifying the profile and see if it doesn't affect stat weights.

Jezz · 12/06/12, 3:54 PM

Originally Posted by tastysnack

If they brought nothing to the raid, I doubt that high-end guilds would bother recruiting them. We're very strong on single-target fights. In addition, our WWs typically top the meters (just under mages) on fights such as Mel'jarak and Empress (provided everything goes right - aren't trapped, etc.).

Sorry, what I meant was that we don't bring anything special to the raid. I'm not saying our DPS is bad at all, I'm saying that there is no specific reason why you want to bring WW monks over any other melee class, nor should there be. But considering we're a new class we are likely to be under-represented meaning a smaller WoL sample size. Although, I'm not sure I've seen anything to suggest we're topping the meters, even on fights that are very good for us.

Crevan · 12/06/12, 5:33 PM

It seems people have very high standards when it comes to "bringing something to the raid". Apart from solid dps, windwalkers have exceptional mobility, a good CC toolkit and great survivability. Almost every boss fight this tier requires at least 1 or 2 of those traits. It's not heroism or battle res, but we're not useless by any standards.

Rubim · 12/06/12, 8:26 PM

blackout_kick,if=((energy+(energy.regen*(cooldown.rising_sun_kick.remains)))>=40)|(ch i=4&!talent.ascension.enabled)|(chi=5&talent.ascension.enabled)

My energy regen is 11.97

For testing, lets check if i have 10 Energy and the cooldown of my rising kick is 1.
11.97 * 1 = 11.97 + 10 = 21.97, dont Blackout.
11.97 * 3 = 35.91 + 39 = 74.91, lets Blackout.

Why not wait for FoF?

You are almost with 40 Energy.

Shadown · 12/07/12, 9:28 AM

Originally Posted by Jezz

Sorry, what I meant was that we don't bring anything special to the raid. I'm not saying our DPS is bad at all, I'm saying that there is no specific reason why you want to bring WW monks over any other melee class, nor should there be. But considering we're a new class we are likely to be under-represented meaning a smaller WoL sample size. Although, I'm not sure I've seen anything to suggest we're topping the meters, even on fights that are very good for us.

Considering that there arent class "must bring in raid" beside the heroism/cr class due to the fact that quite every 2 class bring the same debuff buffs

We can bring only "dps" since our buffs or debuffs are monk-wise only, if TP would stack with other melee we would be grouped everytime

By the way we bring nice cc tools like stun interrupt and soaking like zen meditation, the main reason for the lacking of dps monk on log or elite guild is that we are a new class so it needs time to mastery our class

**Not a really Theory-based proof** but since i've done reforge,test,rotation spreadsheet based haste/crit i'm everytime on top 3 if not first on lfr raid ; so OUR dps isnt low compared with other, we just need to figure out "how dps"

Jezz · 12/07/12, 9:39 AM

Originally Posted by Shadown

Considering that there arent class "must bring in raid" beside the heroism/cr class due to the fact that quite every 2 class bring the same debuff buffs

We can bring only "dps" since our buffs or debuffs are monk-wise only, if TP would stack with other melee we would be grouped everytime

By the way we bring nice cc tools like stun interrupt and soaking like zen meditation, the main reason for the lacking of dps monk on log or elite guild is that we are a new class so it needs time to mastery our class

**Not a really Theory-based proof** but since i've done reforge,test,rotation spreadsheet based haste/crit i'm everytime on top 3 if not first on lfr raid ; so OUR dps isnt low compared with other, we just need to figure out "how dps"

WoW rotations aren't complicated, we know how to play the class 3 months after release.

Shadown · 12/07/12, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Jezz

WoW rotations aren't complicated, we know how to play the class 3 months after release.

Yeah...and still the main concern of this thread is still " To FoF or not to FoF ?" and last month was something like " SFB>BK if Agi Trinket proc? "

Our rotation is too variable since there are people who :

1) Use 2h>dw or viceversa
2) Use FoF or not
3) Stack Crit over Haste or Haste over Crit

At least we can figure out only the "true" weight of our stats on monk skills, like Haste and Crit give huge boost on Tiger Strike proc (haste) and dmg (crit) but crit boost dmg on RSK and BK(dot) and haste boost our energy regen and thus our skill spam

Mastery is giving more problems than help and its like the kindergarden child who eat glue.

And furthermore there are some kind of doubts like "its better use a mastery proc even if we got and energy over-capping?" or "since we are using the Ascension talent there is often a 1Chi stored so i'm wondering if is better to save it for a future FoF or for a SFB?"

---

I want to ask here if someone else is using my open-rotation : JAB->TP->JAB->RSK->JAB->FOF->JAB->BK ? i do this for apply TP and RSK and use FoF while 1 chi and 40 energy are left and RSK is on a CD.

Just for compare any result or spec

Xiaoryn · 12/07/12, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Shadown

I want to ask here if someone else is using my open-rotation : JAB->TP->JAB->RSK->JAB->FOF->JAB->BK ? i do this for apply TP and RSK and use FoF while 1 chi and 40 energy are left and RSK is on a CD.

Just for compare any result or spec

Sounds familiar, this is what I try to do if I don't have any chi from precasting EH (I try to enter combat with at least 2chi if not more)

TP->Jab->RSK->Jab->FoF->Jab->BoK (about here is a good spot for energy brew, in my experience)
Also: at some point in this ^^ I will pop Xuen, depending on how many of my agility procs are up. I aim for at least 1 dancing steel proc combined with either Bottle or Relic.

Eyedore · 12/07/12, 11:46 AM

Im personally using RSK before TP in the opening, I thought that it was better? Or am I mistaken?

When you use FoF that fast, aren't you energy capping for sure? maybe it's better to do 2 jabs right before the first FoF:
Jab->TP->Jab->RSK->Jab->Jab->FoF->Jab->BoK->...

Willfred · 12/07/12, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Eyedore

Im personally using RSK before TP in the opening, I thought that it was better? Or am I mistaken?

When you use FoF that fast, aren't you energy capping for sure? maybe it's better to do 2 jabs right before the first FoF:
Jab->TP->Jab->RSK->Jab->Jab->FoF->Jab->BoK->...

I know this is pretty darn inaccurate and not representative for a real raid situation (seeing as I did these tests completely unbuffed and kept dispelling all procs and such, also i'm only looking at the ability damage and not at what effect the order of these skills has on your autohits and such). But after a few tests on a dummy this is what I get:

TP > RSK

Tiger Palm crits for ±43k and hits for ±20k
RSK crits for ±220k and hits for ±98k

RSK > TP

Tiger Palm crits for ±45k and hits for ±22k
RSK crits for ±184k and hits for ±92k