Windwalker (DPS): a flurry of tender fisting. - Page 35

Eeinx · 12/13/12, 1:45 PM

Originally Posted by Kagura

I was very very concerned about this as well, but I checked most of my logs for the last 4 weeks and my mastery procs (TP and BoK) are a bit blow half of my jabs (I have around 25% mastery in raids). The missing ones can be contributed to me sucking at playing and possibly refreshing some of my mastery procs.

My intention with the tool is finding a sweet spot where I don't feel I can't miss any globals or I'll potentially be losing out on dps.

I have also experimented with the mastery buff before, but I concluded on having CB:TP procs as the lowest priority.

Ok I see what you're doing now

You're not actually running any loops in your tool right? It just gets math'd out directly?

I know you can do some really clever looping in PHP to have it run simulation-esque things. for example:
loopvar=1
while loopvar < fight time
some maths here
loopvar +1
endwhile

masterygloabal = masteryprocsincode / fighttime (in %)

Its basic, but that kind of idea

Things like that. Thats only if you're daring to get into simulation territory. I would only build a psuedo sim if you needed it, since simcraft is pretty much already there it isn't really worth buildn't a non-realistic sim that doesn't take in consideration all factors of the game.

Kagura · 12/13/12, 2:19 PM

Originally Posted by Eeinx

Ok I see what you're doing now

You're not actually running any loops in your tool right? It just gets math'd out directly?

Nope, I am not looping. I already did some kinda simulation tool in LUA at some point, but there's too many projects going on that I have little time. Simcraft is more than enough for my simulation needs at this point

Crevan · 12/13/12, 5:29 PM

Originally Posted by Eeinx

If i set mastery to 25% it looks like its assuming half of your jabs will be mastery procs.

I mentioned this in my post above - the mastery procs for TP and BK seem to be independent of each other, so each one has a 25% chance (in this case) to occur. In other words, after each jab you have a 25% chance to get TP proc, a separate 25% chance to get a BK proc, with 6.25% chance to get both procs at the same time. So the expected value of mastery globals after each jab is 0.25*1 + 0.25*1 + 0.0625*2 = 0.625.

PS I might have had a small mistake in the mastery formula there. The expected value of mastery globals after one jab should be masteryChance * 1 + masteryChance * 1 + masteryChance^2 * 2 = 2 * (masteryChance + masteryChance^2).

The correct formula is 0.25 * 0.75 * 1 with a single mastery proc occurring (25% chance of TP proccing AND 75% chance of BK not proccing, and vice-versa) and 0.25 * 0.25 * 2 for a double proc. This sums up nicely to 2 * 0.25 * 0.75 + 0.25 * 0.25 * 2 = 0.5, exactly what you were seeing.

PS If my math is wrong again I will seriously stop posting for a while >.<

Eyedore · 12/14/12, 7:07 AM

I am wondering about something. Do we know how much haste is valued when we have no energy problems at all? Meaning if haste does not provide extra dps in the form of energy regen, what else does it do to increase our dps? As far as I can see it only increases our melee swings and therefor Tiger Strikes, and it lowers the FoF cast time. Apart from that there is not much to it right? It would seem to me that if we can't benefit from the extra energy regen that haste gives, it is probably our worst stat?

If so, then you can check (per fight if you want to) if you have any energy problems. If you don't then you might want to try out going with less energy.

I have also been making an energy spreadsheet to check our active time per minute.

http://www.kronos-eu.com/download/monk_energy.xls

You can fill in your haste and mastery ratings, what level 45 talent you have, and if you have 2/4 set bonus. I also made the option to manually increase the FoF cooldown (cause mostly you can't use it right on cd) and you can fill in how much energy you think to cap in a minute.

Atm I have reforgeLite set up with a slightly better value for crit compared to haste, and I gemmed for crit:
haste: 3973
crit: 6752
mastery: 2084
(I'm still going for the least amount of mastery on gear if possible btw)

These stats lead to an active time of 56.6 seconds per minute. Which seems correct, because there are some moments during a fight where I am low on energy. But is that really reason enough to go for more haste? It will surely help on those moments, but it will be 'wasted' during the rest of the time. And I don't even have the 4-set bonus.

I guess I'm just wondering how people seem to be fine with 5500 haste. For me that feels to be too much energy regen.

*edit*
I'm actually wondering now if it could possible be better to grab power strikes again to allow us more haste, because power strikes gives chi instead of energy so you don't have to use globals on jabs. This is really just thinking out loud though, and I have no idea how to even calculate this apart from simming it.

Crevan · 12/14/12, 9:26 AM

Originally Posted by Eyedore

As far as I can see it only increases our melee swings and therefor Tiger Strikes, and it lowers the FoF cast time. Apart from that there is not much to it right?

Haste also affects enchant uptime ever so slightly, and reduces the time to proc of our trinkets that are off-ICD. The effect it has on these things is not significant, though.

I'm not sure if this would be the right way to approach this issue, but we could simply look at what percentage of our damage output comes from passive sources (white hits + tiger strikes). Let's take 27.5% as an average value for this, and generously round that up to 30% to account for enchant/trinket uptime and faster Fists channel. So, if we assume this method to be viable, then after you have "enough" energy regen, only 30% of haste's value will increase you dps. And by "enough" I mean an amount required to saturate every free GCD with either a jab or a chi-spender without capping on energy.

saboya · 12/14/12, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Eyedore

It would seem to me that if we can't benefit from the extra energy regen that haste gives, it is probably our worst stat?

Still buffs our auto-attacks and provides more Tiger Strike procs, both of which benefir from Crit. It's probably still better than Mastery.

Littch · 12/16/12, 11:34 AM

Is Haste simming correctly for us on Simcraft? I am sitting at 3950 atm. Haste still shows to be 0.3 higher than Crit.

Don't really want to reforge my gear up to a higher haste atm, still have the trinket from shado pan, which at times makes it hard to use extra energy regen.

What is other peoples Haste to Crit stats simming at, how close is the gap? would really like to know. (pref people with bottle+Xuen)

Ruga · 12/17/12, 2:51 AM

Originally Posted by Littch

Is Haste simming correctly for us on Simcraft? I am sitting at 3950 atm. Haste still shows to be 0.3 higher than Crit.

Don't really want to reforge my gear up to a higher haste atm, still have the trinket from shado pan, which at times makes it hard to use extra energy regen.

What is other peoples Haste to Crit stats simming at, how close is the gap? would really like to know. (pref people with bottle+Xuen)

From what I understood so far is that haste value is shifting depending on your gear.
It should become clear if you plot it in Simcraft. For most people in here, it's around 5k haste give or take (I for one reforged to 4994 haste sitting at 501 ilvl with some BiS pieces).

Littch · 12/17/12, 8:48 AM

Originally Posted by Ruga

From what I understood so far is that haste value is shifting depending on your gear.
It should become clear if you plot it in Simcraft. For most people in here, it's around 5k haste give or take (I for one reforged to 4994 haste sitting at 501 ilvl with some BiS pieces).

it is as i thought then. i will need more haste as soon as bottle drops. Could you tell me what settings i should use to Plot on simcraft? never used it before

Slightly off topic, but can anybody recomend a reforging add-on that lets you have more than 2 caps? I currently use Reforgelite, but since it will only let you have 2 caps, its kinda annoying. after hit/exp you cant set your haste to a certain amount.

Crevan · 12/17/12, 10:55 AM

In simcraft options, go to Plots, select the number of plot points and step amount (higher numbers here will give more detail/info, but will take much longer to run), then tick the stats you want to compare (again, more stats = longer run time).

Can't say anything about reforge addons since I don't use any, but wowreforge.com allows you to specify 3 caps.

And haste is simming as being better than crit for you because it probably is, in theory. As long as the sim manages to spend more energy than is being gained, it will keep putting haste as the more valuable stat. A player in the game will rarely manage to perform as well as the sim, though. You have to take latency, reaction time, human error and encounter mechanics into account. There's a way to account for most of these things in SimCraft if you dig deep enough.

Littch · 12/17/12, 1:26 PM

Originally Posted by Crevan

In simcraft options, go to Plots, select the number of plot points and step amount (higher numbers here will give more detail/info, but will take much longer to run), then tick the stats you want to compare (again, more stats = longer run time).

Can't say anything about reforge add-ons since I don't use any, but wowreforge.com allows you to specify 3 caps.

And haste is simming as being better than crit for you because it probably is, in theory. As long as the sim manages to spend more energy than is being gained, it will keep putting haste as the more valuable stat. A player in the game will rarely manage to perform as well as the sim, though. You have to take latency, reaction time, human error and encounter mechanics into account. There's a way to account for most of these things in SimCraft if you dig deep enough.

Currently use Wowreforge myself, well when i want exact ratings, was after an add-on that worked similar so i could do fast reforges much like reforgelite lets us, there does not seem to be one anyway, was looking earlier on. Will try to look further into simcraft. Thanks for tips anyway.

AbsolutRayne · 12/18/12, 2:41 AM

Anyone have proper Overrides that work for limited FoF in Rotations for Simcraft? The one from a few pages back just errors out for me.

Jepson · 12/18/12, 5:03 AM

Originally Posted by Littch

Slightly off topic, but can anybody recomend a reforging add-on that lets you have more than 2 caps? I currently use Reforgelite, but since it will only let you have 2 caps, its kinda annoying. after hit/exp you cant set your haste to a certain amount.

Reforgenator lets you specify several rules on how to reforge. ReforgeAuto brings a button you can push to automatically reforge your gear according to those rules.

Shadown · 12/20/12, 5:55 AM

This week i finally got all the 4 piece of t14 and even with a 65xx HASTE i can assure that our mastery is really a pain in the ass

even if it is an "extra" BK or a free TP atm, on long term is a loss due to the fact that since :

1) if i dont use ASAP the proc i lose ISTANT DPS ( dBKDMG / dT)

2) if i use the proc the GDC will screw my rotation and waste tons of energy since i dont JAB but i BK/TP and let the energy capping

i will do some test but im start thinking that isnt enough to reforge mastery > haste or crit

but also forget about mastery proc sometimes if that would screw our rotation , or even - but this is pure theory - to USE ONLY with an HIGH crit % to compensate the dps loss due to the energy capping or JAB delay

Example :

Assuming 100EN and 0 CHI

JAB [2CHI + BK PROC] -> BK ASAP or JAB and 3 BK ?

* remember that the GDC from JAB will add 1x energy to your 60 and the free BK another 1x -> 60->8x *

If you use the BK PROC but DONT CRIT it would prob be a loss DPS if the ENERGY WASTED thanks to the mastery could have give you another BK

But otherwise if you DONT USE THE PROC ASAP it is a BURST DPS LOSS but if you JAB over the PROC you can "store" 2 CHI for another BK, that we can assume as the "BK you wasted using the PROC ASAP"

I'm saying that since even with 65xx or 6700 haste there are the same problem - mastery and energy capping under HERO or BL - or even the terrible combo (EB + BL + MASTERY ...the horror)

I'm not saying that haste is getting a bad stat after some point, AA and TS are very strong with haste so.. , but at some point we HAVE to reforge on CRIT to compensate the problems that mastery proc can give us.

edit : 65xx-67xx haste based on my 2H build ;

Xiaoryn · 12/20/12, 1:29 PM

So...we need a certain level of crit in order to make mastery valuable? Interesting, I wonder what our crit cap is in this scenario.

----
Also, something else to contribute: Working on heroic Gara'jal tonight, so I got a whole raid night to really experiment with tweaking reforging to see what gains, if any, i could generate pull to pull.

I started to notice something...even when the scenario was as close to identical as a 25man raid team could make it (lust at beginning, prepot, etc) I would see a sustained dps variance of 5-9k. I began comparing attempts in my recount to see what the deal was...Tiger Strikes. On every attempt where I was sustaining 110k+, My tigerstrikes were accounting for a full 12+% of my total damage output. On every attempt where I pulled 95-105k, tigerstrikes were accounting for around 5-7%. The rest of the numbers and percentages were nearly identical except tigerstrikes.

So, on a whim, I went and reforged back into haste > crit (w/ no haste break point) to see if i could improve my tigerstrikes buff uptime...it worked. I stopped seeing attempts where I was sustaining 95-100K, and every pull thereafter was 115-118k, tigerstrikes accounting for 14% of my total damage output.

I don't really know what to make of this other than haste, possibly due to the tigerstrikes passive, is still the best stat to stack even after our energy issues are solved.

For reference, my gear is mostly normal modes: 2xEmpress claws, Bottle and Xuen for trinkets. Ascension. My rotation is RSK>maintain tigerpalm debuff>FoF>BoK(proc)>BoK>TigerPalm(proc). Energybrew used on cooldown after Lust is over, and TigerEye used every 10stacks asap. Xuen with as many agi procs as possible (dancing steel+bottle+xuen+agi flask).

Also, for the sake of science, I did not care to examine numbers from fights where the attempt didn't last past 65%.