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12/21/12, 5:46 AM
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#526
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Von Kaiser
Draenei Monk
Kul Tiras (EU)
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Originally Posted by Shadown
This week i finally got all the 4 piece of t14 and even with a 65xx HASTE i can assure that our mastery is really a pain in the ass
even if it is an "extra" BK or a free TP atm, on long term is a loss due to the fact that since :
[...]
I'm not saying that haste is getting a bad stat after some point, AA and TS are very strong with haste so.. , but at some point we HAVE to reforge on CRIT to compensate the problems that mastery proc can give us.
edit : 65xx-67xx haste based on my 2H build ;
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Maybe it's just me but your post is very unclear. Apart from that you are giving almost no arguments to support your claims, instead it's mostly speculation.
Anyway, numerous people here allready said that you really don't want much more than 5500 haste. So the fact that you say you may want less than 6500-6700 haste is something we all allready know. And everybody is allready reforging out of all mastery on our gear.
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12/21/12, 8:21 AM
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#527
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Piston Honda
Pandaren Monk
Stormreaver (EU)
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Originally Posted by Eyedore
Maybe it's just me but your post is very unclear. Apart from that you are giving almost no arguments to support your claims, instead it's mostly speculation.
Anyway, numerous people here allready said that you really don't want much more than 5500 haste. So the fact that you say you may want less than 6500-6700 haste is something we all allready know. And everybody is allready reforging out of all mastery on our gear.
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The latest simulationcraft still prioritizes haste over crit for me, both with and without fof in the priority list. Without fof, haste just gets prioritized higher, and I have over 7k haste atm.
I think that these "haste soft caps" come from older versions of simulationcraft, and have just been quoted and re-quoted many times since. In real raiding scenarios, because of most current encounter mechanics, you can't use FoF as often as the simulation would try, adding further value to haste over the default sim.
Maybe the set bonuses change this a bit, but until simulationcraft indicates otherwise, I'm sticking with haste over crit. Simulationcraft's numbers just seem more reliable than the anecdotal numbers that are getting tossed around.
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12/21/12, 12:11 PM
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#528
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Faceroller
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Originally Posted by khel
The latest simulationcraft still prioritizes haste over crit for me, both with and without fof in the priority list. Without fof, haste just gets prioritized higher, and I have over 7k haste atm.
I think that these "haste soft caps" come from older versions of simulationcraft, and have just been quoted and re-quoted many times since. In real raiding scenarios, because of most current encounter mechanics, you can't use FoF as often as the simulation would try, adding further value to haste over the default sim.
Maybe the set bonuses change this a bit, but until simulationcraft indicates otherwise, I'm sticking with haste over crit. Simulationcraft's numbers just seem more reliable than the anecdotal numbers that are getting tossed around.
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This crit over haste badwagon started because of the change to Acension and the FoF fix, and makes a lot of sense if you ask me. You may see a lot of "elite" monks go crit because of Sha too, given the 15% haste buff you get in the fight.
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12/21/12, 12:50 PM
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#529
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Don Flamenco
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Updated my Windwalker Spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...0TktDUEE#gid=6
Notes:
-We scale with haste until a haste/mastery plateau, and then mastery > haste. Basically we have more chi than we can spend with BOK.
-RSK > FOF > BOK > TP > Jab. Everyone should be using FoF as much as possible and prioritizing it over BOK. The bug fix in 5.1 made it great again.
-Ascension > Power Strikes until you can get 4pc and use them perfectly (3 FOF/min, being a robo-monk with your rotation) otherwise Ascension is the way to go.
To do:
Crit > Haste w/ power strikes?
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12/21/12, 2:19 PM
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#530
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Kind of hates everything.
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Hey, I really like that spreadsheet - but maybe I'm missing something (running on a lack of sleep right now), but what are the x- and y-axis for the first sheet's graph? I'm assuming Y is damage over time, but I don't like assuming things.
I can see Power Strikes being useful if one were to gear with the 4set bonus, but after looking at other people's numbers (Crevan's in this post) as well as running some numbers for myself, it seems like Ascension without the 4set has been a very minimal gain due to being able to grab a little bit extra of certain stats (for example, I'm using Heroic WotE helm (crit/haste) and Normal Empress shoulders (also crit/haste), as well as the chest from normal Sha (crit), though at my item level Elegon's would be an increase (just not available to me right now)) but still gearing for the 2set. Perhaps at a higher item level I will want the 4set - but then there's still the numbers Crevan posted. Are those just mathematically flawed? For example, Sha's chest is just better itemized, same with Empress shoulders.
Unless your argument is that Ascension is better due to the amount of human error in using our rotation? I can see that, too. It also seems to me that the Haste/Ascension shows more BoKs (hardcast) per minute than with Power Strikes, which would still put Ascension ahead, I believe?
This (the auto attack/tiger strikes page) also seems to support that haste and crit do scale about evenly for tiger strikes damage (unless I'm looking at it wrong?) It seems that low haste and high crit have roughly the same damage - so what it'll come down to is, rather than worrying about how our secondaries affect tiger strikes (since, as stated earlier, they seem to equally benefit it) we would instead want to gear in such a way to better benefit spells such as RSK, BoK, Jab, and general chi generation/consumption. In other words, we'd want to have enough haste to always be casting, but not so much we are capping out while consuming our chi.
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12/21/12, 2:47 PM
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#531
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Don Flamenco
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Pretty much Tasty.
The Y axis is DPS, and the X axis is haste %. I tried adding the x-axis haste labels but my googledocfu seems to be weak. The Blue line is ascension and the red line is power strikes.
If anything, Tiger Strikes scales better with crit because new procs reset the buff duration rather than adding additional procs to it.
The tighter you play your rotation means that haste is benefiting you more, because you can take advantage of the maximum number of GCDs. You can play with the Human Error/Lag cell to see how your dps scales with haste.
From what I can see, monks have 2 haste breakpoints. The first is where you ideally are using all your GCDs and you don't have to wait for energy/chi anymore, after which you start leaving TP mastery procs on the table. The second is where you cap TP casts and only use 3/min (20 sec buff duration) and start leaving BOK procs on the table.
Ascension seems to win only because it yields higher Chi/min than Power Strikes at every level of haste. The benefit of Power Strikes is that the Chi is "free" and you don't need to cast any extra jabs to get it, ascension forces you to jab more because you have more energy to spend.
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12/21/12, 3:17 PM
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#532
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Kind of hates everything.
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Thank you for clarifying - wanted to make sure I was reading it correctly.
Looking at numbers, I'm not entirely sure why you'd want to leave BoK procs on the table regardless of your amount of haste - so please let me know what brings you to that observation.  It does as much as 4x the damage of Jab/Expel harm, so one would think that regardless of haste, you'd still want to use a proc (that said, I can still see where you can haste cap to the point of not using a TP proc). Though, I can see (again) why mastery flatlines due to chance of energy cap. That said, I've found I'm using Expel Harm more and more when off of CD (obviously favoring times of high raid damage) in order to avoid capping due to a mastery proc (such as when I have EB up). From previous math, I'd only see energy capping as a damage loss if you were sitting at full energy for at least 4 seconds (more like 5, but I'm going to be conservative with my rounding).
Originally Posted by Saltycracker
Ascension seems to win only because it yields higher Chi/min than Power Strikes at every level of haste.
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I mostly want to highlight the importance of this statement. The only time I can see using Power Strikes over Ascension might be in a movement heavy fight, or a slower one... I can't think of any off the top of my head (perhaps if there were one similar to P2 Heroic Vizier, which even that is a weak example of what I've in mind) - one where you aren't constantly on the boss or consistently hitting something. The added energy gain seems like it would be a loss, and the "free" Chi from Power Strikes seems like it'd be more useful. But then, if I were a raid leader, I would probably just want to bring in another ranged vs. a melee, if one were out of melee range long enough for that to be a viable choice. Does that make any sense? That is - that the more downtime a fight has melee damage-wise, the more useful it seems Power Strikes (or even Chi Brew, assuming they give roughly the same amount of Chi ever 90s) would be over Ascension. Let's just hope there aren't any encounters like this.
I think I agree with you on where to go from here - whether or not crit or haste benefits tiger strikes more. I don't feel that (at this time) pursuing where Power Strikes > Ascension, simply because I can't even think of any fights with that amount of downtime in comparison to uptime - I believe Lei Shi comes close, depending on the type of special abilities and how close together they are prior to the boss respawning, but during attempts on that on Heroic it didn't seem like enough downtime to be worthwhile. Perhaps I will try it the next time my guild kills her and look at my logs (we log privately, but I'll try to remember to grab some raw data for comparison if I can).
Edit: Which, the more I think about it, if a fight were to have 4 seconds of downtime (which is my estimate of where Ascension would be a loss, by taking into account how much time needs to pass at energy cap), Chi Brew would be more likely to be a gain simply because of the instant 4 Chi. Though, there's still the chi orbs from Power Strikes if one were to cap. I may actually end up looking into this, anyway.
Last edited by tastysnack : 12/21/12 at 3:32 PM.
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12/21/12, 3:28 PM
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#533
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Glass Joe
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Tigereye Brew seems to hit max stacks about 3 times every two minutes. Would it be more benefical to hold it to line up with a trinket/xuen or just blast it as soon as it's at max?
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12/21/12, 8:59 PM
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#534
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Von Kaiser
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Patch 5.2 PTR patch notes are up. A lot of interesting changes to Windwalkers, and monks in general. Perhaps Mastery won't be as crappy as it is now...
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12/21/12, 9:29 PM
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#535
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Don Flamenco
Gnome Rogue
Darksorrow (EU)
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If I'm reading the datamined changes right, Combo Breaker becomes a passive ability with a flat 12% chance to proc. Bottled Fury is the new mastery, and it increases the effectiveness of our (slightly reworked) Tigereye Brew. So, each jab will on average require additional 0.24 GCDs to use up the procs, or roughly 1 free ability proc every 4 jabs (same as current mastery with 0 mastery rating).
Bottled Fury makes much more sense as a mastery, since it's a more-or-less flat damage increase that doesn't depend on luck or play style, so the devs will have an easier time tweaking our damage output in future. As an added bonus, it also addresses the issue of our on-demand burst.
We also get what is basically a pvp trinket in Nimble Brew. How useful this ends up being will depend on whether or not it shares a CD with the actual pvp trinkets and human racial. Also in PVP department, Deadly Reach becomes baseline (as was expected) and is replaced by Ring of Peace - an aoe silence/disarm around the target.
Finally, stuff like our healing talents, Tiger's Lust and ToK are losing Chi costs with some cooldown adjustments. All welcome quality-of-life changes.
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12/22/12, 2:09 AM
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#536
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Glass Joe
Pandaren Monk
Stormreaver
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First guess at how these changes affect us: I'm still thinking haste/crit over mastery simply because you need to actually have the stacks to use before mastery affects anything. Just a guess, though.
The part I find more interesting is the new lvl 75 talent, Storm/earth/fire. Summon elementals to help dps things, at a cost of our own dps numbers. 1 ele summoned = 60% of output + ele does 60% = 120% of normal dps....2 eles, and the numbers become 40% personal +40% from ele1 +40% from ele2 = 120% total. While this is a dps increase, i wonder why we'd even bother summoning more than 1 elemental at a time? Though, sounds cool to summon your own personal gang to show up and start roflfisting your target. I see myself using this in conjunction with energybrew or a lust, maybe even tigereye if the damage transfers over.
I am intrigued, can't wait to see what PTR testing will show.
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12/22/12, 2:31 AM
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#537
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Von Kaiser
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Regarding Storm, Earth and Fire:
I wonder if this is meant to be our cleave? It seems that they don't follow you from target to target. It's not described as a cleave, but we've been asking for a DPS increase in 2-3 target scenarios (since we basically use our single target rotation) and it seems like that's exactly what this is.
Otherwise, why would you have a choice between summoning 1 or 2 elementals?
I think maybe the ability is in an alpha stage and they're not sure yet how to implement the restrictions that will make it only usable in cleave scenarios.
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12/22/12, 4:04 AM
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#538
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Moozhe
Regarding Storm, Earth and Fire:
I wonder if this is meant to be our cleave? It seems that they don't follow you from target to target. It's not described as a cleave, but we've been asking for a DPS increase in 2-3 target scenarios (since we basically use our single target rotation) and it seems like that's exactly what this is.
Otherwise, why would you have a choice between summoning 1 or 2 elementals?
I think maybe the ability is in an alpha stage and they're not sure yet how to implement the restrictions that will make it only usable in cleave scenarios.
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I would venture to guess SEF will act like the new Xuen. "Xuen will now fixate on the Monk's original target." It seems rather foolish not to have at least one spirit out at all times. Guess we have to see what the cost is to summon them. 4 stacks of Tiger's Brew?
Could be kinda fun to see the two mirror images also summon their own sparkle kitty. I do like the idea of SEF + FoF in a PvP setting, I'd feel like Oprah: Stuns for you, and stuns for you and stun for you. Stuns for everyone!!!
Fairly excited to see how this pans out.
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12/22/12, 4:05 AM
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#539
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Von Kaiser
Pandaren Monk
Sanguino (EU)
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Mastery will probably be pretty good if they keep the values. Gaining 1 Tigereye Brew Charge per 2 chi, our TB uptime will be over 75% (you only need to gain 20 chi in 15 seconds for 100%, I'm right now around 14 chi in 15 seconds).
After doing some rough calculations I'll say is better than haste by a good margin, I'll wait for the PTR to be up to confirm them.
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Follow the Moeko Principle.
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12/22/12, 10:29 AM
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#540
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by fr0d0b0ls0n
Mastery will probably be pretty good if they keep the values. Gaining 1 Tigereye Brew Charge per 2 chi, our TB uptime will be over 75% (you only need to gain 20 chi in 15 seconds for 100%, I'm right now around 14 chi in 15 seconds).
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Actually we need to SPEND that amount of chi. For 20 Chi spent, that's 10 Jabs and 10 BoK/RSK, which is 20 GCDs, assuming no FoF use. I'd say we're looking at about 50% uptime at 10 stacks per pop. Obviously this is napkin math and nothing extensive. I can't really expect to get 20% + damage uptime unless they wanted us to do 20% more damage baseline.
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