Windwalker (DPS): a flurry of tender fisting. - Page 37

saboya · 12/22/12, 12:01 PM

Storm, Earth and Fire is supposed to be our cleave, but it's pretty dumb if it's always a DPS gain to have them up 100% at the time, and right now it seems to be that way. Also dumb that going from 2 to 3 spirits will be a 0 DPS gain.

Littch · 12/22/12, 2:05 PM

I am really looking forward to the tiger eye change. I don't think people have thought about this. Currently we have to use it pretty much as soon as it comes up. Otherwise we'll waste stacks, since it now stacks past 10, we should be able to save it for Trinket procs for maximum damage increase, as long as we don't cap at 20. There is also the fact when we save it for lust, we are going to get massive amount of damage increase through out lust.

The mastery change is welcomed as well, though i feel its going be really overpowered. 0.2% per 1% mastery? That is like an extra 2.4% baseline as long as we start at 12 mastery, So effectively a 34% damage increase per 10 stacks if my maths right.

gahddo · 12/22/12, 2:14 PM

Originally Posted by LightforgedUS

Actually we need to SPEND that amount of chi. For 20 Chi spent, that's 10 Jabs and 10 BoK/RSK, which is 20 GCDs, assuming no FoF use. I'd say we're looking at about 50% uptime at 10 stacks per pop. Obviously this is napkin math and nothing extensive. I can't really expect to get 20% + damage uptime unless they wanted us to do 20% more damage baseline.

Well, one also has to consider the added benefit of maintain a 100% uptime on it regardless of number of stacks due to the new mastery. Chances are it will probably wind up the same way it is now, 100% uptime vs 10 stacks isn't a difference at all. I'd expect that we'll probably see minor gains from 10 stack OR if cds are coming up. With regards to the stat values, this should make them MUCH more distinct in simc. Part of the issue with haste scaling vs crit was the interaction with mastery, uncontrollable in the best of situations. With that *lessened* by the transition of it into a passive 12% hardcoded value, it should smooth haste a lot. This means we *SHOULD* be able to get very distinct numbers for stat priority.

Kiante · 12/22/12, 3:12 PM

Originally Posted by saboya

Storm, Earth and Fire is supposed to be our cleave, but it's pretty dumb if it's always a DPS gain to have them up 100% at the time, and right now it seems to be that way. Also dumb that going from 2 to 3 spirits will be a 0 DPS gain.

I really doubt that when implemented it's going to be a single target dps gain. It says abilities, so that wouldn't include auto's, and i assume they will balance it so that it's a dps loss unless you're hitting multiple targets

Shadown · 12/22/12, 3:53 PM

Originally Posted by Xiaoryn

So...we need a certain level of crit in order to make mastery valuable? Interesting, I wonder what our crit cap is in this scenario.

Well you have to consider that the "crit cap" is :

- From Retri Thread -

Autoattack Crit Cap is 71.2% (100% - 24% glancing - 4.8% suppression). Crit above this level would not generate more crits.
Ability Crit Cap is either 95.2% (100% - 4.8% suppression) or possibly 100% (104.8% - 4.8% suppression).

So if RSK or BK can "glanc" we can assume that the crit cap is "71.2%"

About the "new" mastery and TB

Tigereye Brew
Monk - Windwalker Spec
Instant 1 sec cooldown
Increases damage done by 2.60% per stack of Tigereye Brew active, consuming up to 10 Tigereye Brew stacks. Lasts 15 sec.
Brewing: Tigereye Brew
Monk - Windwalker Spec
For each 2 Chi you consume through use of abilities and attacks, you gain a charge of Tigereye Brew. Use Tigereye Brew to consume the charges, granting you 2.60% increased damage for 15 sec.

Tigereye Brew can stack up to 20 times, but can only consume up to 10 stacks at a time for 26.00% increased damage.

Mastery: Bottled Fury
Monk - Windwalker Spec
Grants an additional 1.60% damage per Tigereye Brew stack.

So TB is getting a 1% dmg (instead of 2%) but with a BASE 1.60% from BASE mastery (?) is 2.60% further speculation suggest that

11.2%(actually base mastery) 8% Mastery Rating = 1.60% Mastery DMG ; that can explain the +0.2% dmg increase per mastery

Eeinx · 12/22/12, 4:14 PM

Originally Posted by Kiante

I really doubt that when implemented it's going to be a single target dps gain. It says abilities, so that wouldn't include auto's, and i assume they will balance it so that it's a dps loss unless you're hitting multiple targets

I'm also worried about the rhetoric of "normal damage". I can't imagine this being a ST dps gain. It will likely just be a pressure/split damage/cleave tool.

I'm beginning initial implementation of the new stuff in a local module, but the way simc interacts with spell data, i'm not sure i can hard code much of the changes to give early results before ptr comes out.
So i'll probably have it shortly after ptr launches so i can verify how things works before getting into really nitty gritty stuff.

We can make alot of assumptions, including Bottled Fury scaling at 1% per 429 mastery, damage scaling to SEF clones (whether it be like mirror images or snapshot), and things of that nature.

They also left Combo Breaker in place, so we're still going to have haste devaluation, but at a static rate (12%).
For stat weights, my guess is:
Haste to 6000 +/- 15% due to mastery interaction > Mastery > Crit
This haste value is based around the 6k'ish value where energy starts to cap under certain circumstances but left enough room for the worst case of high mastery procrate. This will probably change, but i feel that crit will be nowhere near mastery and haste simply because of masterys positive instead of negative interaction with haste now.

Originally Posted by gahddo

Well, one also has to consider the added benefit of maintain a 100% uptime on it regardless of number of stacks due to the new mastery. Chances are it will probably wind up the same way it is now, 100% uptime vs 10 stacks isn't a difference at all. I'd expect that we'll probably see minor gains from 10 stack OR if cds are coming up. With regards to the stat values, this should make them MUCH more distinct in simc. Part of the issue with haste scaling vs crit was the interaction with mastery, uncontrollable in the best of situations. With that *lessened* by the transition of it into a passive 12% hardcoded value, it should smooth haste a lot. This means we *SHOULD* be able to get very distinct numbers for stat priority.

We will likely get the opportunity to have less RNG stat weights with these changes, but haste will still have a margin of error equal to 12% of jabs. Haste is still going to be a little weird. Less weird though.

Not to mention the new mastery directly interacts with haste as well, since chi spent is stacks gained.

We'll likely do as we do today and ignore tiger palm procs and use BoK procs for the teb stack (if they dont fix the bug).

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I'll try and do as much testing as I can before PTR launches, but I'm not going to spend too much time on the unsurities until i get raw and real life spell data.

Crevan · 12/22/12, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by Shadown

Well you have to consider that the "crit cap" is :

- From Retri Thread -

So if RSK or BK can "glanc" we can assume that the crit cap is "71.2%"

Only white auto-attacks can be glancing blows. Crit cap is not something we should be worried about; we are extremely unlikely to have the stats on gear required to reach those levels even by the end of expansion. It used to be something to consider when certain specs had a lot of +crit chance talents, but those are gone now.

Arathius · 12/24/12, 5:28 AM

Some speculation since all the related information isnt released, but outside of the obvious cleave value that S/E/F would provide, if each clone did elemental damage it may be beneficial to keep 2 up instead of one. Even through the passive arpen, having 80% total output of your pre-split damage dealt as non-physical damage should theoretically be a straight up increase. The problem would be if S/E/F clones didnt benefit from white damage. Ive been looking around and havent been personally able to find if stated that it would be dealt as elemental damage or physical. The behavior of S/E/F along with the mastery rework has the potential to completely change stat weights and honestly seems to be the most interesting change we get in the current datamined notes as its the main dynamic change. Doing some quick napkin math for the dynamic interactions it could give through white inclusion or not Im getting based off my own average white damage of ~20% and 12% tiger strike damage. Im also adding in values for the event that the yellow damage from tiger strikes is excluded if white is excluded.

White included:

1 clone: 60/60 split into flat 20% total increase

2 clones: 40/40/40 split into flat 20% total increase

White excluded:

1 clone: 60/48 resulting in an 8% increase

2 clones: 40/32/32 resulting in a 4% increase

White/Tiger Strikes excluded:

1 clone: 60/40.8 resulting in a .8% increase

2 clones: 40/27.2/27.2 resulting in a 5.6% decrease

Rather basic but there would be no reason to add your second clone into a single target environment should white damage be excluded. The value of S/E/F usage looks to be a sliding scale based on the percentage of white damage/yellow damage you get per fight so we can expect its value to not be set in stone and depend on personal stat weightings and vary fight to fight.

d07.RiV · 12/24/12, 6:56 AM

We can make alot of assumptions, including Bottled Fury scaling at 1% per 429 mastery, damage scaling to SEF clones (whether it be like mirror images or snapshot), and things of that nature.

Pretty sure it means 0.2% per 600 mastery per stack. So 300 mastery for 1% at 10 stacks.

Also, patch notes mention that we will be getting a stack every 2 chi used, down from 4. Unless they made a mistake somewhere, this should mean crazy high uptime (like 70%) and will surely be quite OP.

tastysnack · 12/26/12, 1:57 PM

No - that's not OP. You ARE correct, though, that it does mean a much higher uptime with more stacks.

Einx, I think it's great for you to work on the module but it's probably not a good idea to do too much until PTR is actually released. Much can change between now and then - though it's great to see that Blizzard has taken our suggestions to heart. This new mastery isn't something I've considered, but is a great change.

However, without our level 30 talents using Chi, I'm not going to be able to gimmick TeB anymore without a target dummy... harumph. It'll be even more of a loss between pulls - unless they finally fix it so that the buff from using stacks disappears on pull as well. While I hope they don't, it's still awful inconvenient to build stacks pre-pull anyway... so part of me hopes they do. Though, it'd be nice to have a 2-3min CD that perhaps gives us full (or, in 5.2, 10) TeB stacks so that we can start the fight with them. It would also give us some burst, which would be nice.

Overall, though, I think I'm of the mind to subconsciously consider stat weights... but I know that until PTR launches, it'll be difficult to fully calculate how Combo Breaker really affected my GCDs and how the new mastery will scale vs. crit. Or, even, to figure out general scaling. As it stands, my own stat weights for crit and haste change with every upgrade

It looks like my stat weight for mastery won't be 0 anymore, at least! But I am not inclined to state that the change will have it outweigh crit or haste just yet.

saboya · 12/26/12, 3:12 PM

Unless they do add some Crit interacting mechanic to Windwalker, I'm pretty sure that Mastery will be the best stat after a certain amount of Haste (or even at any Haste level) and, since it scales linearly, will remain that way.

Arathius · 12/26/12, 4:42 PM

If the current rating of 1% total damage increase at 10 stacks per 300 mastery rating holds then its easily conceivable that after the rough haste cap mastery will be our best secondary. Before any mastery on gear comes in were looking at 7800 worth of calculated mastery between the base value and the raid buff. That puts TEB at a 36% damage increase while active just by base value with double the uptime now. With current chi per minute values of the ~6000 haste soft cap were looking at a rough 50% uptime of new TEB, so after that point Mastery will take a huge spike in value comparative to haste.

Saltycracker · 12/27/12, 3:15 AM

Using the formula:

TEB Scalar = 1 + (0.01 * Stacks) + (0.0002 * Stacks * Mastery%)

I'm getting a lower DPS gain for Mastery than with Crit and Haste.

Based on my spreadsheet, I think the Stat priority will be Crit ~ Haste >> Mastery for 5.2. Changing mastery will be really good for our rotation, but will be a wash in terms of how much DPS throughput it will provide.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...ENHVmSHc#gid=6

Shadown · 12/27/12, 7:53 AM

RSK buff and TB 2.0 buff are cumulative or multiplicative?

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By the way , even w/o spreadsheet calculation, we can assume that even with this new TB (more than 20% dmg) Haste>Mastery since Haste = More Chi = More TB/TB UpTime

And even more with this new TB we can see that CRIT is slightly better for 2H over HASTE and HASTE over CRIT for DW

Due to the fact that 2H hit harder on SPELL and DW has more extra dmg from white dmg.

Originally Posted by saboya

Unless they do add some Crit interacting mechanic to Windwalker, I'm pretty sure that Mastery will be the best stat after a certain amount of Haste (or even at any Haste level) and, since it scales linearly, will remain that way.

Not really, since CRIT is always "boosted" by DMG Multiplier ( like RSK or TB, or TP even) so basically CRIT>Mastery , unless the mastery is something really good like Retri Mastery.

Even more at high haste rating, that means more chi and therefore more TB/TB UpTime, CRIT will be > Mastery because we'll have and extra DMG Multiplier

**Not Theorycraft**
Imho Mastery will be very usefull on DW monks with high HASTE rating, since even with low CRIT they will have an huge boost DMG from AA and Tiger Proc

tastysnack · 12/27/12, 7:19 PM

That's why I feel like it's a bit early for us to start saying that mastery is going to shift in our priorities - for all we know, it could change prior to even hitting the PTR. Not to say it isn't a great change (it feels like we've finally been heard).

The most welcome part of the change, however, is greater TeB uptime. If one were to simply Jab > BoK (which obviously we don't), it takes a full 80 GCDs (ignoring Chi gains such as Power Strikes) just to reach 10 stacks of TeB. The proposed change cuts that in half, meaning greater uptime, and an easier time to pool it before Timewarp/Lust/Hero or other CDs. That in and of itself seems like it'll at least be a 1% overall increase for us, even if the actual damage increase for TeB is cut in half (and ignoring its gains from the new Mastery). I wonder if this also means that it would be more of a loss to use it prematurely (ie, before hitting 10 stacks) - it seems like it to me, but I don't have the tools right now to actually test it.

I can see Mastery becoming stronger for offspec WWs with high haste (such as Brewmasters that may go WW for certain fights), just to grow on what Shadown's already said.