Windwalker (DPS): a flurry of tender fisting. - Page 9

• promdates · 09/24/12, 3:03 PM

I sent this to Nextormento, but figured I'd post it here too. I went through all of the items on wowarmory.com and wowhead.com and came up with this list. Other than it being just a stat-break down list of each item and where to get it, it could be useful for someone who's working on a spreadsheet similar to the Ret paladin one for dps/gems/enchants/reforge. It's every ilvl 450+ item, including 1h/2h and trinkets (probably not modeled properly for procs)

Monk MoP Items

• promdates · 09/29/12, 5:23 PM

Can I get people to send me their naked level 90 stats with no talents or glyphs for the following races?

Thanks!

Sazina · 10/01/12, 3:23 AM

I have real concerns for my WW monk.

It feels like the rotation is often at times already GCD capped. Even in this low ilvl gear. Mostly caused by the mastery which i am starting to see is maybe not that useful?

With energizing brew and mastery procs its possible for me to waste energy.
With heroism and mastery procs i seem to waste alot of energy. It feels like we are producing too much rescources that i can't spend. So during heroism i don't gain as much DPS as i should.

Coming from a rogue reroller. I am used to having pauses in my rotations this early in the gear lvl. Then by end of expansion the rotation is full of attacks due to the increased regen.

Right now i just cant see my monk gaining much DPS when it has high haste/mastery and possibly haste proc trinket compared to other classes. Perhaps i am just being paranoid but it feels it wont scale well at all with gear.

Sadiera · 10/01/12, 5:34 AM

Whatever do you mean by tender fisting?

Jezz · 10/01/12, 9:04 AM

Originally Posted by Sazina

I have real concerns for my WW monk.

It feels like the rotation is often at times already GCD capped. Even in this low ilvl gear. Mostly caused by the mastery which i am starting to see is maybe not that useful?

With energizing brew and mastery procs its possible for me to waste energy.
With heroism and mastery procs i seem to waste alot of energy. It feels like we are producing too much rescources that i can't spend. So during heroism i don't gain as much DPS as i should.

Coming from a rogue reroller. I am used to having pauses in my rotations this early in the gear lvl. Then by end of expansion the rotation is full of attacks due to the increased regen.

Right now i just cant see my monk gaining much DPS when it has high haste/mastery and possibly haste proc trinket compared to other classes. Perhaps i am just being paranoid but it feels it wont scale well at all with gear.

I have had similar concerns, I really like the way Windwalker plays currently but this is a very frustrating aspect and, as you mention, it is very worrying that I am experiencing it now in atrocious gear. I don't really think it is a particularly easy thing to fix either so while I'm sure a fix will come at some point, I doubt it will be a hotfix in the immediate future. What do you think a temporary solution is? Just favouring crit wherever possible?

Professor Hurt · 10/01/12, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Jezz

I have had similar concerns, I really like the way Windwalker plays currently but this is a very frustrating aspect and, as you mention, it is very worrying that I am experiencing it now in atrocious gear. I don't really think it is a particularly easy thing to fix either so while I'm sure a fix will come at some point, I doubt it will be a hotfix in the immediate future. What do you think a temporary solution is? Just favouring crit wherever possible?

So far, I think our best option is to reforge away from Mastery to avoid free finisher procs. I still tend to cap, but far less than the other options I've explored.

tastysnack · 10/01/12, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by Professor Hurt

So far, I think our best options are to use a 2H (less haste) and reforge away from Mastery to avoid free finisher procs. I still tend to cap, but far less than the other options I've explored.

I'm going to have to second this (crit build), though I'm not so sure about going with a 2H (I'd want to see some logs first of 2H vs. 1H with a crit build - it seems like the difference would be roughly negligible, given our +weapon speed when using a 2H). I tried a haste master build, and again - wasted resources. While it's nice to be able to have plenty of TEB stacks, it seems like the smallest bit of mastery goes for miles right now.

Otherwise, I'm also looking at talenting out of power strikes - the extra Chi is wonderful, but with a haste master build, it still feels like more wasted resources - especially being GCD capped at barely iLev 455.

Dunno. Perhaps run some logs tonight and see how it fares (at work right now). Just my .02 in a spot where I can't log in right away to test.

Saltycracker · 10/01/12, 4:56 PM

Originally Posted by tastysnack

I'm going to have to second this (crit build), though I'm not so sure about going with a 2H (I'd want to see some logs first of 2H vs. 1H with a crit build - it seems like the difference would be roughly negligible, given our +weapon speed when using a 2H). I tried a haste master build, and again - wasted resources. While it's nice to be able to have plenty of TEB stacks, it seems like the smallest bit of mastery goes for miles right now.

Are these on a target dummy, or in Heroics/World bosses?

I'm not having any trouble using all my GCDs, and sometimes having to wait to jab. Make sure you are using your chi on RSK and FOF as much as possible (as they are hard chi spenders) and not using mastery procs right away. I'm sitting on my procs usually for when I need to refresh Tiger Power, or when BOK is my only option.

AOE situations also run me dry, even when I'm keeping Tiger Power up and RSK on CD.

• promdates · 10/01/12, 6:18 PM

Originally Posted by Saltycracker

Are these on a target dummy, or in Heroics/World bosses?

I'm not having any trouble using all my GCDs, and sometimes having to wait to jab. Make sure you are using your chi on RSK and FOF as much as possible (as they are hard chi spenders) and not using mastery procs right away. I'm sitting on my procs usually for when I need to refresh Tiger Power, or when BOK is my only option.

AOE situations also run me dry, even when I'm keeping Tiger Power up and RSK on CD.

There are a few times in the early gear that you won't quite have the energy, causing you to wait around for a second or two to regen enough for procs/abilities. It's not great to just sit on mastery procs and only use them to refresh Tiger Power as you can Jab for Chi, get the double mastery procs, hit RSK/BoK/FoF, then use the Tiger Palm to refresh then BoK again.

tastysnack · 10/01/12, 8:31 PM

Originally Posted by promdates

There are a few times in the early gear that you won't quite have the energy, causing you to wait around for a second or two to regen enough for procs/abilities. It's not great to just sit on mastery procs and only use them to refresh Tiger Power as you can Jab for Chi, get the double mastery procs, hit RSK/BoK/FoF, then use the Tiger Palm to refresh then BoK again.

Completely this. There are times that I won't get the mastery procs that I'll feel the teensiest bit energy-starved, but that's also typically when I've screwed something up or am plain unlucky.

Also, for data purposes, this was last night on Raid Boss-level target dummies, and the majority of my gear other than gloves and pants are heroic or 450 item level, including the Coren trinket and the crit trinket with haste proc.

Szeretlek · 10/02/12, 3:50 AM

I have 463 DPS monk with 1h and haste gear.
Do 50-60k dps single target w/o BL, flask, food and pot. (2min)
With BL I do 70k dps (2min) w/o flask, food and pot.

Im just starving in energy and want more haste. I just try not to cap either of my resources and not consume mastery proc as much as possible.

By the way, DPS monk is strongly lacking dps cooldowns. Some specs just blow them all on pull and do insane amount of damage while you just build your Tiger Strikes buff. We dont even have execute phase, our dps is SOOO booringly similar throughout whole fight and that is not cool. We dont either have 2 target cleave or multidot or something which is pretty base stuff in raid.

I ask you all, what your dps would be if you need to progress through Spine of Deathwing HM? How can monk burst the tendon?
How monk can burst Hagara or cleave 2 adds at Blackhorne?

But our AoE is godly imbalanced. Even as Mistweaver monks just blow up recount.
I think Windwalker place is only on aoe (3+ targets) fights or VERY long fights, where others dpser with their cooldowns will be averaged in time.

Sazina · 10/02/12, 6:07 AM

You cant expect to have cleave as a hybrid DPS with so much utility already. You can't have everything. We already have alot of utility mobility offhealing etc. i wont list everything.

And your example of tendons in spine. You would be able to have 10 stacks of tigereye ready. With chi brew and/or energizeing brew. Xuen up for 2 aswell. As a few of us mentioned right now the class is GCD capped at times and wastes rescources hopefully its something they will fix as gear levels improve to make the class scale better and perform better under cooldowns.

You are playing a 3 role hybrid class if it was the best burst & aoe & single target in the game what would be the point of pures which lack much utility and have to switch spec to excel at certain fights. A combat rogue for example cant burst tendons it has the cleave at blackthorne and switch to sub spec for spine.

I am hoping they redesign Touch of death into some form of execute. As right now i don't see much use of it in raids and its not useable in pvp either. Also they could also make it into some high burst 4 chi or full energy bar dump which would help to spend the rescources during herosim/bl. Or high damage on target switch.

Szeretlek · 10/02/12, 10:36 AM

You cant expect to have cleave as a hybrid DPS with so much utility already. You can't have everything. We already have alot of utility mobility offhealing etc. i wont list everything.

Elem - Chain Light. ShadowPriest - dots, BalanceDru - Dots, RetriPal - Censure and so on. And I dont even mention AoE abilities. All hybrids can cleave and do it well.

We already have alot of utility mobility offhealing etc.

Are you about Healing Sphere that we cant spam because of energy? Their healing is so low. All others hybrids can heal >>MUCH<< more and faster way then DPS-monk.

What I want to say is that our dps stay at same level ALL the fight. And yes, I agreed with you, that Touch of Death should be some sort of useful execute.

Saltycracker · 10/02/12, 11:36 AM

Monks seem like they are going to have to fight the uphill battle like resto shaman in T12/13. Is our mobility enough of a benefit to offset DPS? Unless that mobility was paired with a pretty awesome burst ability for adds or something, I'd say no. We do competetive DPS with other classes, but raids tend to go light on melee, so we gotta shine somehow or get sat.

Spinning Crane kick is the only ability that we really excel with; we did Sha of Anger and it was 75% of my damage because that was the best cleave for the adds (SPIN TO WIN!). Zen Med is kinda useful situationally or at least it's great for a personal damage reduction CD.

Off healiing? No. Even when I'm mistweaving nobody runs over my green balls, and even then a monk healing sphere does about 10k healing; not even good when I'm soloing my dailies.

Fists of Fury needs to hit harder and matter more. It's a pretty clumsy ability, and it doesn't really fit in the rotation on CD unless you force it in. Like have it reduce the cooldown on our level 90 ability or something.

tastysnack · 10/02/12, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Saltycracker

Fists of Fury needs to hit harder and matter more. It's a pretty clumsy ability, and it doesn't really fit in the rotation on CD unless you force it in. Like have it reduce the cooldown on our level 90 ability or something.

Going to have to agree here. Weaving it into my rotation feels absolutely clunky and awkward. Also, I've found that even if I save my stacks through trash/add phases, burst is still very questionable - even using energy CD and Xuen.

I honestly can't see us as anything close to offhealers, even if we do use zen sphere on, say, an adds tank, drop our green balls, or whatever else. I think the closest thing we have to utility would be to glyph for being able to use Zen Meditation while moving for high damage phases - and even that's incredibly clunky, being that it's channeled and removes us from doing anything else.