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Old 11/29/12, 1:35 PM   #196
HoneTheDroll
Glass Joe
 
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Pandaren Monk
 
Sen'jin
Originally Posted by Sasazuka View Post
Yes, in practice, using Soothing Mist more often as a filler did increase Chi generation based on yesterday's fights. Looking at logs (for Will of the Emperor), it seems I was able to use EM more often.
When you say it increased Chi generation, do you mean relative to Jabbing, or relative to some other means of generation?

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Old 11/29/12, 1:51 PM   #197
Sasazuka
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Frostwolf
Not relative to Jabbing since I don't get to do much of that on that particular fight. Previously, I would Chi Brew, Surging Mist, etc for Chi but more time spent on channeling Soothing Mist is enough for now. In case, you didn't see the patch notes, Soothing Mist and Crackling Jade Lightning now has 35% chance to generate Chi as opposed to 25%. This is in addition to the Power Strikes changes which is definitely nice.

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Old 11/30/12, 1:19 PM   #198
HoneTheDroll
Glass Joe
 
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Pandaren Monk
 
Sen'jin
I'm considering beginning a separate thread for melee focused healing discussion. I feel that this is really something that would be beneficial. I can't speak to anyone else's experiences, but I've really struggled in putting together a clear picture of how to best focus on this aspect of
I've always enjoyed playing hybrid classes and I feel this is the first time since the lockdown (removal of the ability to spec into multiple trees until the final point of the primary tree was taken). I understand the design rationale of that lockdown, but it took simmering important out of the game for me. So, my intent is to play the Mistweaver as a hybrid class, doing as much as I can to contribute to both damage and healing. If you are of like mind, and would like to be a part of discussion leading to a new thread on this, please PM me and we can begin to plan.

As a point of clarification, this thread would be largely for those intending a focus on melee healing, and the current MW thread would still be the place to talk more generally about the specialization.

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Old 11/30/12, 5:58 PM   #199
Sasazuka
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Frostwolf
I don't think we'll be able to fistweave primarily on progression content - similar to how priests will never be able to fully rely on Atonement for the entire duration of a fight. Maybe, through particular phases but many of the times, they relies on particular mechanics to be present (e.g. boss take xxx% more damage). Certain important requirements needs to be clarified: whether a monk is considered as a range or melee in terms of mechanics (often certain mechanics will not affect me) and how much movement is required (statue).

Output and control of healing is an issue as well. It might be interesting to see monks have mechanics where monk would use abilities on an target and have the damage be directed as heals to the opposite side of the target (e.g. [Monk] > Target < [Tank] takes healing) but PVP-wise monk already has too many positional requirements (range and front/back facing) to fully realize the benefits. I even had hopes for a dual-wielding monk healer (haha). Maybe if monks get the Chakra treatment, fistweaving may become more viable.

Additionally, 50% of our healing from Eminence comes from our statue which has requirement (20yds, cooldown, and mana cost) and is a smart heal (good/bad depending on what you need/want to do). On some fights where healing is no longer as intense, I've put out more DPS but am often disappointed by the range of Eminence on my statue. I feel that Eminence range on yourself is fine but could be larger on your statue or lower the cost (cooldown/mana) for re-placing the statue. As far as I know, there's only a few mechanics that one could abuse with the statue (Empress being one I think).

I believe in terms of optimizing heals/DPS (or even just heals) you will want to fistweave but you'll still fall back to traditional methods of healing due to its many advantages (control, output, etc). I don't think fistweaving is just a nice gimmick but I don't think it'll ever be a viable alternative on progression without being heavily mechanic dependent. At the moment, fistweaving has only one strong positive influence (in my opinion) - Chi generation. However, nothing is impossible so we may see someone use fistweaving as an effective replacement.

Last edited by Sasazuka : 11/30/12 at 6:05 PM.

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Old 11/30/12, 9:51 PM   #200
Daellia
Von Kaiser
 
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Orc Warlock
 
Lothar
You're forgetting that soothing's tick frequency (and by extension chi generation rate) scales with haste. At 3145 haste you get an average of 0.41 chi per second, or 7.3 seconds on average to get 3 chi. So I was a little off in saying you could get 100% uptime just from soothing at that particular haste level.
Note that Enveloping's tick rate scales at exactly the same rate as Soothing's, so really the only thing that matters for Enveloping uptime is chi per tick, not chi per second.

Assuming sub-5380 haste rating (so Enveloping has 7 ticks), we need to generate at least 3 Chi in 7 ticks to maintain 100% uptime. There has a 46.8% chance of this occurring. 53.2% of the time, we'll end up failing to get the Chi for 100% uptime.

Given 7 ticks, we can refresh Enveloping without clipping no earlier than the 6th tick. The probability of getting 4 or more Chi (and thus potentially wasting 1) in 6 ticks of Soothing is 11.7%.

Unfortunately, calculating the actual average downtime is difficult without a sim, as binomials can't account for the ability to "pool" chi. For example, if you overgenerate during the duration of one Enveloping, those chi are not necessarily wasted. Let's say you cast Enveloping right at 3 Chi, then generate 5 Chi over the next 6 ticks. You refresh Enveloping just after the 6th tick, dropping back down to 2 Chi, but then only generate 1 more Chi over the next 7 ticks (this assume you have Ascension, for the record). You still have enough Chi to cast Enveloping again, and despite the fact that you overgenerate on the first cast and undergenerated on the second, you had no wasted chi or downtime. This probably can be analytically evaluated, but is beyond my capabilities. I'll see if I can scratch together a rough sim to test it.

Edit: Thrown together, it's showing an average of 19.6% downtime and 1.77% Chi waste over 100k iteration at 300 ± 60 seconds duration. Assumptions: Ascension talented, no other spells used, Soothing Mist refreshing ignored entirely. Removal of Ascension raises downtime to 21.2% and Chi waste to 3.78%.

Bumping to 8 tick duration (5380 breakpoint) gives 11.6% downtime and 4.94% waste with Ascension, 13.79% downtime and 7.67% waste without.

// PROVIDED BY: M. Scott Leuthaeuser
// CONTACT E-MAIL: michael (dot) leuthaeuser [at] gmail (dot) com
// FILE: ChiSim.cpp
// VERSION: 0.1.0.A
// PURPOSE: Simulate Enveloping Mist uptime under ideal conditions

// DIRECTIVES -----------------------------------------------------------------
#include <cstdlib>
#include <iostream>
#include <iomanip>
#include <ctime>
#include <string>
#include <conio.h>
using namespace std;
// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

// STRUCTURES------------------------------------------------------------------
struct Sim
{
	float time;
	int chiGenerated;
	int chiWasted;
	float downtime;
};
// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

// GLOBAL CONSTANTS -----------------------------------------------------------
const int G_CHI_PROBABILITY = 35;	// Probability of generating 1 Chi each tick
const int G_ITERATIONS = 100000;	// Number of iterations
const float G_TIME = 300.0;			// Average total sim duration
const float G_VARIANCE = 0.2;		// Variation on total sim duration as a percent of G_TIME
const float G_DURATION = 7.0;		// Enveloping duration in ticks
const float G_REFRESH = 1.0;		// Number of ticks you can fresh early and still get full duration
const int G_CHI_MAX = 4;			// Max Chi pool
const int G_CHI_INIT = 3;			// How much Chi you start with
const int G_CHI_REQ = 3;			// How much Chi Enveloping consumes
// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

// FUNCTION PROTOTYPES --------------------------------------------------------
Sim simulate(float time);
// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

// ============================================================================
int main()
{
	Sim total, iteration;

	total.time = 0;
	total.chiGenerated = 0;
	total.chiWasted = 0;
	total.downtime = 0;

	srand(time(0));

	// Simulate
	for(int c = 0; c < G_ITERATIONS; ++c)
	{
		iteration = simulate(G_TIME * (1.0 + 
			(G_VARIANCE*2*((rand()%101)/100.0) - G_VARIANCE)));
			
		total.time += iteration.time;
		total.chiGenerated += iteration.chiGenerated;
		total.chiWasted += iteration.chiWasted;
		total.downtime += iteration.downtime;
	}

	// Output results
	cout << "AVERAGE DOWNTIME: " << total.downtime/G_ITERATIONS << " / " << total.time/G_ITERATIONS << " (" << total.downtime/total.time*100 << "%)" << endl;
	cout << "AVERAGE CHI WASTED: " << (float)total.chiWasted/G_ITERATIONS << " / " << (float)total.chiGenerated/G_ITERATIONS << " (" << (float)total.chiWasted/(float)total.chiGenerated*100 << "%)" << endl;

	// Pause
	cout << endl << "Press any key to continue...";
	cin.sync();
	_getch();

	// Exit
	return 0;
}
// ============================================================================

Sim simulate(float time)
{
	Sim i;
	i.time = 0;
	i.chiGenerated = 0;
	i.chiWasted = 0;
	i.downtime = 0;

	int chi = G_CHI_INIT;
	float remDuration = 0;

	for(i.time; i.time < time; i.time++)
	{
//		cout << "TIME: " << i.time << ", CHI: " << chi << ", DURATION: " << remDuration;
		if(remDuration < G_REFRESH && chi >= G_CHI_REQ)
		{
//			cout << " REFRESH!";
			chi -= G_CHI_REQ;
			remDuration += G_DURATION;
		}
		
		if(remDuration == 0)
		{
//			cout << " DOWNTIME!";
			i.downtime++;
		}
		
		if(rand()%100 < G_CHI_PROBABILITY)
		{
			if(chi == G_CHI_MAX)
			{
//				cout << " CHI WASTED!";
				i.chiWasted++;
			}
			else
			{
//				cout << " CHI GENERATED!";
				chi++;
			}
			i.chiGenerated++;
		}
		
//		cout << endl;
		if(remDuration > 1.0)
			remDuration--;
		else
			remDuration = 0;
	}
	
	return i;
}

Last edited by Daellia : 11/30/12 at 10:53 PM.

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Old 12/01/12, 3:26 AM   #201
Sasazuka
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Frostwolf
Thanks for the calculations. Going to have to take a closer look at the code when I have time.

More nerfs in a recent hotfix but they did fix Renewing Mist priority. Below are relevant information for monk:

- Stance of the Fierce Tiger now correctly applies its 10% movement speed increase. It may be necessary to activate this stance if it is not already active to benefit from the effect.
- Monks using Roll and Flying Serpent Kick will now move at the correct speed while holding a Battleground flag.
- The mana costs of Jab, Spinning Crane Kick, Soothing Mist, Crackling Jade Lightning, and Renewing Mists have been increased by 30%.
- Soothing Mist and Crackling Jade Lightning now have a 30% chance to generate Chi when they deal damage (was 35%).
- Renewing Mists will now always prioritize players over player controlled pets.
I do agree mana seems abundant (prior to hotfix) however purely fistweaving seems even harder now. If they are going to adjust Chi generation, they should appropriately adjust Enveloping Mists (if they are trying to maintain output).

Last edited by Sasazuka : 12/01/12 at 3:34 AM.

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Old 12/01/12, 4:42 AM   #202
Szeretlek
Piston Honda
 
Troll Priest
 
Термоштепсель (EU)
With current mana costs:
Uplift manacost (through Chi):
2*11700 [Jab] - 2*3000*(1+%Crit) [Manatea] = Crit%=20% = 2*11700 - 6000*1.2 = 16200
Uplift manacost (with glyph):
300000*0.06 = 18000
So it seems that glyphed version not so bad now and dont depend on chi. And its even better when you realise that you can spend your chi to others spells like Burst, Chi Sphere or Enveloping Mists.

I think its time to glyph it. Or reroll because monk heal going to trash.

Added: Seems like Glyphed version of Uplift cost more then 18000 mana... Like 20000 or so

Last edited by Szeretlek : 12/01/12 at 4:50 AM.

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Old 12/01/12, 8:24 AM   #203
yrhi
Von Kaiser
 
Gnome Monk
 
Mal'Ganis (EU)
After today's hotfix Jab mana cost is 11.7k.

It seems like Blizzard only hotfixed the basic fist Jab. So if you unglyph Jab then the mana cost is back to 9k.
Have fun with for one more day. :p

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Old 12/01/12, 5:01 PM   #204
sarkxd
Glass Joe
 
Human Warlock
 
Minahonda (EU)
What is the conclusion then, occasionally fistweaving and Mistwea normally with ascension? and Upflit's glyph for mist?

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Old 12/01/12, 9:29 PM   #205
Spleener
King Hippo
 
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Blood Elf Monk
 
Sen'jin
This change actually reduces the relative value of Ascension. Remember that the value of 1 free chi is equal to the cost of your generator plus the average mana return of 1/4 of a tea charge. So more expensive chi generators = bigger net gain from mana-free chi.

Glyph of Uplift is also still a hpm loss vs. unglyphed. It's jut a 25% hpm loss instead of 50%.

Big Crits, the show about wiping, killing bosses, and teabagging.

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Old 12/01/12, 10:20 PM   #206
Daellia
Von Kaiser
 
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Orc Warlock
 
Lothar
Added: Seems like Glyphed version of Uplift cost more then 18000 mana... Like 20000 or so
It's 19800. Glyphed Uplift took a 10% mana cost increase in 5.1 just like most other spells (I tested it on the PTR at the time). Cost is now 6.6% mana, contrary to the tooltip.

Also, I have updated numbers for the chi simulator using the new 30% chance on Soothing:

Chi Brew, 7 ticks: 30.67% downtime, 1.74% waste
Chi Brew, 8 ticks: 22.71% downtime, 3.84% waste
Ascension, 7 ticks: 29.89% downtime, 0.55% waste
Ascension, 8 ticks: 21.23% downtime, 1.79% waste

(didn't model Power Strikes because it is time-metered, and this sim is only calculating per tick, not per second, so independent of haste).

Last edited by Daellia : 12/01/12 at 11:23 PM.

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Old 12/02/12, 7:40 AM   #207
nightlily
Von Kaiser
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Whisperwind
Was there another hotfix? My jab is back at 9000 mana, where it was briefly 11.7k. Or is this a bug?

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Old 12/02/12, 8:31 AM   #208
Braelinah
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Monk
 
Saurfang
I'm able to reach the 12th tick in ReM. Is it worth it ? Or should the 11th tick be enough then put everything else into crit ?

Also, a few EU players are using Ascension. Anyone know why they chose that over PS / Brew?

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Old 12/02/12, 12:56 PM   #209
mofidik
Piston Honda
 
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Human Paladin
 
Doomhammer (EU)
While of minor import amidst all these drastic efficiency nerfs, it appears the devs were kind enough to make Ascension and Expansive Mind (Noam racial) stack multiplicatively to a total of 362.25k mana (instead of 300k * 1.20 = 360k).

Originally Posted by nightlily View Post
Was there another hotfix? My jab is back at 9000 mana, where it was briefly 11.7k. Or is this a bug?
There is a allegedly a bug concerning the Jab mana cost increase and the glyph that makes the strike appears as though no weapons are equipped. I don't know the details, but if you see variation in the cost then try swapping the glyph on and off.

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Old 12/02/12, 2:13 PM   #210
MikeMo
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Monk
 
Laughing Skull
When the hotfixes came through and my server was restarted Jab still cost 9k mana. I did not have it glyphed. However, I was curious and I glyphed Jab and the mana cost went up and stayed there after I took the glyph off. I restarted WoW to see if the cost would go back down but it would appear I'm still at the new mana cost.

I did not check to see if this was a tooltip bug that was fixed my adding the glyph as the cost may have still been the new cost but with a tooltip stating the old.

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