Mistweaver Healing Compendium - Page 16

Minister · 12/05/12, 12:18 PM

But use decreases your stacks by two, so aren't you better off carrying as many stacks as possible (below 11, so your double wouldn't clip stacks at 20), then beginning use? That is, there is no advantage to using it on cooldown unless your are low on mana or there is not enough time remaining on the fight to allow you to consume the full stacks?

Spleener · 12/05/12, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by Minister

But use decreases your stacks by two, so aren't you better off carrying as many stacks as possible (below 11, so your double wouldn't clip stacks at 20), then beginning use? That is, there is no advantage to using it on cooldown unless your are low on mana or there is not enough time remaining on the fight to allow you to consume the full stacks?

The object of the glyphed mana tea game is to:

A)Not use it when your mana is too high and "overheal" your mana
B)Not be oom while sitting on a bunch of charges.

It's counter to goal B to not use it as often as possible as long as it doesn't violate goal A. Your threshold for when to start using it should be mana-based, not charge-based (ie at <x% mana, not >y stacks.)

You're correct in that it's an inefficient use of GCDs to use it at just one charge, so waiting for two is fine. I personally have weakauras scream at me when it's off cooldown, >=2 stacks, and I have <80% mana.

Minister · 12/05/12, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Spleener

The object of the glyphed mana tea game is to:

A)Not use it when your mana is too high and "overheal" your mana
B)Not be oom while sitting on a bunch of charges.

It's counter to goal B to not use it as often as possible as long as it doesn't violate goal A. Your threshold for when to start using it should be mana-based, not charge-based (ie at <x% mana, not >y stacks.)

You're correct in that it's an inefficient use of GCDs to use it at just one charge, so waiting for two is fine. I personally have weakauras scream at me when it's off cooldown, >=2 stacks, and I have <80% mana.

Okay, but using our earlier assumption of 1 Chi per 2.625 seconds, you only generate 1 stack of Mana Tea every 10.5 seconds, meaning after your mana drops to 80%, your stacks will decrease faster than you're generating them, even with the new crit mechanism doubling your stacks.

Let us consider waiting until 10 stacks, where your mana might be down to 50%. Now your crit double is possibly generating 8-10 extra stacks of Tea, extending your use of Mana Tea by 40-50 seconds at a time. There is almost no chance you would run out of stacks, or consume a single stack. Does this make sense?

Sasazuka · 12/05/12, 1:56 PM

I think you are still misunderstanding the crit changes in relation to building Mana Tea. Patch notes says: You now have a chance equal to your crit chance to generate double the amount of Mana Tea Charge. This means every time you spend 4 Chi, you have [CRIT CHANCE]% to generate 2 Mana Tea charges - not double whatever charges you currently have as that would be too overpowered. So Spleener's points still holds but I'd say you would consider consuming it when you are <92% mana unless you know you need it for later.

I'm curious, does WoL show you gaining Mana Tea twice or does it just go up by two once? I've been looking to see if it occurred but typically I only see:

[21:45:23.162] Pantsuda gains Mana Tea (4) from Pantsuda
[21:45:46.925] Pantsuda gains Mana Tea (5) from Pantsuda
[21:45:46.925] Pantsuda gains Mana Tea (6) from Pantsuda

But I've only been paying attention to the stacks and not the time because I'm not sure how it shows up in logs.

EDIT: Never mind I answered my own question in the logs I pasted. It goes up twice in the same instance so it shows up twice in the logs.

Minister · 12/05/12, 2:01 PM

Originally Posted by Sasazuka

I think you are still misunderstanding the crit changes in relation to building Mana Tea. Patch notes says: You now have a chance equal to your crit chance to generate double the amount of Mana Tea Charge. This means every time you spend 4 Chi, you have [CRIT CHANCE]% to generate 2 Mana Tea charges - not double whatever charges you currently have as that would be too overpowered. So Spleener's points still holds but I'd say you would consider consuming it when you are <92% mana unless you know you need it for later.

I'm curious, does WoL show you gaining Mana Tea twice or does it just go up by two once? I've been looking to see if it occurred but typically I only see:But I've only been paying attention to the stacks and not the time because I'm not sure how it shows up in logs.

EDIT: Never mind I answered my own question in the logs I pasted. It goes up twice in the same instance so it shows up twice in the logs.

My fault, I misunderstood the patch notes. You are right, use it on cooldown whenever you have 2 or more stacks with less than ~89% mana.

Spleener · 12/05/12, 2:14 PM

Yeah, the only reason to let your stacks pile up is if you anticipate your mana bar being reset to some predetermined value that renders any previous mana gains/losses moot, be it by a mechanic that effectively restores you to full mana (H-Gara'jal, H-Sha) or a mechanic that forces it to zero (most notably death, since your stacks do stick around when you die and get scraped off the floor. Though ideally you shouldn't be basing your long-term plans around that happening.)

yrhi · 12/06/12, 4:12 AM

Originally Posted by zeraveth

Chi Torpedo is still a viable talent for phases on the move, but they disabled the possibility to use / to roll without moving, and it's not viable in most places.

- Jump right after you cast CT, the same second, it will drastically reduce the distance

- You can backpedal and CT right back to where you started. I mostly use CT when I have 2 charges and then zick-zack and I'm back.

Mórgoth · 12/06/12, 5:09 AM

Originally Posted by yrhi

- Jump right after you cast CT, the same second, it will drastically reduce the distance

- You can backpedal and CT right back to where you started. I mostly use CT when I have 2 charges and then zick-zack and I'm back.

Our friend is 101% correct. I do the same many times, but i usualy choose xuen from T90.

zeraveth · 12/06/12, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by yrhi

- Jump right after you cast CT, the same second, it will drastically reduce the distance

- You can backpedal and CT right back to where you started. I mostly use CT when I have 2 charges and then zick-zack and I'm back.

Chi torpedo becomes useful if people are stacked up, if they aren't, we're talking a few hits, for a gain that doesn't compete to focusing building chi and uplifting. Also you don't take into account that you're highly likely if on a stackup phase, not going to be able to move out of it(Feng the accursed, Gara'jal, the spirit kings, elegon, wind lord, grand empress, to name a few). the jump technique isn't going to provide much, and I fear you're just ending up having to move so much it actually makes you less efficient.

Now on a side note, I suggest people who're actually misunderstanding the change on mana tea, to not post any comments here until they've at least bothered doing testing. You're simply making readers confused on a thread where either theory-crafting based on facts, or facts are addressed.

nightlily · 12/06/12, 12:34 PM

-deleted-

nightlily · 12/06/12, 1:21 PM

New question for everyone:

I'm currently considering the implications of RPPM system for mistweavers. Specifically, Jade Spirit now that it uses RPPM has a more meaningful impact on our healing, and is affected by haste, and is claimed to be affected by the greater of the two: spell haste+melee haste. Our melee haste is increased by 50% when we equip a 2handed weapon, which would *in theory* have a significant impact on proc rate. From the logs I've looked at I do see a correlation between weapon type and proc chance, but I don't have enough data to be sure about that.

So I ask: has anyone else noticed an increase chance to proc jade spirit when using a staff?

Theoretical uptimes with 3150 haste/2-tick rem breakpoint=

based off spell haste:

2PPM*1.1545 hasted = 2.309 PPM

*12/60 = 46% uptime

based off melee haste:

2PPM*1.5556 hasted= 3.1112PPM

*12/60 = 62% uptime

Spleener · 12/06/12, 2:00 PM

First off, the speed bonus is to 2-handers, not 1h/oh (MWs can't dual wield.)

Second, the bonus is 40% to attack speed, which is not the same thing as melee haste. Attack speed only affects auto-attack swing speed, melee haste additionally increases energy/rune regeneration and reduces channel duration of some melee abilities (most notably SCK.) So no, the WotM bonus will not affect your real PPM rates.

The 10% raid buff is also attack speed, not melee haste, so it will always go off of your spell haste (since that does get raid buffed.)

Hulkling · 12/07/12, 10:58 AM

I'm very curious if there is a reason why most of the monks in this thread are now choosing Xuen for their t90 talent. Have there been changes that make it useful from a healing standpoint or are the other two options so lackluster that sparklekitty is just more entertaining?

Spleener · 12/07/12, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Hulkling

I'm very curious if there is a reason why most of the monks in this thread are now choosing Xuen for their t90 talent. Have there been changes that make it useful from a healing standpoint or are the other two options so lackluster that sparklekitty is just more entertaining?

Xuen is a pretty solid second healing cooldown, relatively speaking. Dude does 800-900k damage per summon for me on a single target fight, more if you have multiple targets (tiger lightning is the lion's share of his damage, and it's a cleave,) which amounts to ~1 million healing over 45s. That's a little less than revival in the worst case scenario, but it's a smart heal that distributes itself over 45s rather than a dumb heal that does it all at once.

Meanwhile, RJW is rarely good- it costs 2 chi, so it has to be compared against other things you'd spend that chi on, most notably CB, since that's the talent you're going to take in most fights where you use SCK enough to even put RJW on the table. In the best case scenario spending your 2 chi on RJW and then chaining SCK for the entire 12s duration of the buff is going to 200k edge in hps, though in practice it's less becuase you're probably going to use 1s to throw out another ReM and 1s to spend the chi you're generating so you don't cap. But still though, in the hypothetical world where it's 200k hps, that means you have to use it 6 times within Xuen's 3 minute cooldown- which means you use it exactly on cooldown- for it to be better overall than Xuen.

I can see RJW maybe being good in situations where you need another cooldown but Xuen can't hit the boss for whatever reason, but aside from that, it's never going to a good choice.

I still need to get around to properly modeling Chi Torpedo's healing (Xuen too, for that matter)- from all I've heard it does decent healing for zero mana cost, but is awkward to use and using it rotationally effectively nerfs your own mobility.

nightlily · 12/07/12, 3:57 PM

Originally Posted by Spleener

First off, the speed bonus is to 2-handers, not 1h/oh (MWs can't dual wield.)

Second, the bonus is 40% to attack speed, which is not the same thing as melee haste. Attack speed only affects auto-attack swing speed, melee haste additionally increases energy/rune regeneration and reduces channel duration of some melee abilities (most notably SCK.) So no, the WotM bonus will not affect your real PPM rates.

The 10% raid buff is also attack speed, not melee haste, so it will always go off of your spell haste (since that does get raid buffed.)

As far as 40% being attack speed, there is a bit of a confusion there since the ability that grants it states that it is attack speed but when equipping a 2 handed weapon, the character sheet's melee haste does increase. The energy regeneration angle hadn't really occurred to me since I don't play WW much, but ultimately one of two things is happening: the character sheet is lying, or our understanding about how energy regeneration works is mistaken.

I never included the 10% raid buff, but it is interesting to note that after checking this also appears on the character sheet.

Not really sure what that means. I was just considering the implications of that and the wording of the explanation of the RPPM system: "This Real PPM is increased by your haste %. (The highest of your melee, ranged, or spell haste is chosen)."

I also miss-typed when I said "dual-wield" when I definitely meant to say 'use a 2hander'. I later on also referred to staves specifically, there. I did realize that the effect is from wielding 2 handed weapons and obviously I know healers can't dual-wield.