Mistweaver Healing Compendium - Page 19

Bemxuu · 02/17/13, 1:40 AM

Does Slice and Dice count as haste for the real PPM system?
Yes. RPPM uses the highest of all haste/attack speed/cast speed effects.

From GC's posts. Why shouldn't 40% haste affect RPPM then?

nightlily · 02/20/13, 6:11 PM

Been doing some analysis of our tier 30 talents and it appears that Zen Sphere's healing output is still modestly superior to Chi Burst, but they are close enough to make Chi Burst a contender for fights where burst is helpful or where the HoT portion would mostly go to waste. It also looks like Chi Wave is still very far behind and is only about half as strong as the other options, meaning that unless we're approaching 50% overheal with the alternatives, it's going to be a very weak choice.

This is with the Feb. 19th changes and these results were consistent with observational data from the PTR.

With my gearset, these were my calculations:

Chi Wave: 11k HPS(e)
Chi Burst: 18k HPE(e)
Zen Sphere: 20k HPE(e)

I would like to know if anyone else has done some work on these talents and whether they are reaching the same conclusion.

dracjin · 02/21/13, 2:50 AM

I have although done some testing of our t30 talents with the fellowing results:

Spellpower ~25800

Chi Wave
Single Heal - 28500
AoE - 0
Ticks - 4
CD - 15
Min Heal / CD - 114000
Min Heal / min - 456000
Max Heal / CD - 114000
Max Heal / min - 456000

Chi Burst *
Single Heal - -
AoE - 63000
Ticks - -
CD - 30
Min Heal / CD - 126000
Min Heal / min - 252000
Max Heal / CD - 378000
Max Heal / min - 756000

* min. Targets hit = 2

Zen Sphere
Single Heal - 5700
AoE - 14800
Ticks** - 8
CD - 10
Min Heal / CD - 60400
Min Heal / min - 362400
Max Heal / CD - 134400
Max Heal / min - 806400

** Zen Sphere doesnt benifit from haste and has always 8 Ticks

For pure hps you need to ensure that Zen Sphere Detonation hits at least 3 players and Chi Burst hits more than 3 players to be better than Chi Wave.

If you overwrite a Zen Sphere with a new one, it won't force an instant detonation anymore, so it's neceassary to roll it on two targets.

nightlily · 02/21/13, 6:47 PM

Originally Posted by dracjin

** Zen Sphere doesnt benifit from haste and has always 8 Ticks

I hadn't noticed this, I could have sworn it used to be.

My calculations have a spellpower of ~31k, and accounts for crits, mastery etc from gear and raid buffs, so for all these reasons it's understandable that these things are higher. I did only enough testing in the PTR to confirm that my theoretical values were not wildly off the mark. Adjusting to remove haste as a factor, the calculations total:

Per cast:

Chi Wave: 163004
Chi Burst: 538670
Zen Sphere:187742

Per second:

Chi Wave: 10867
Chi Burst: 17956
Zen Sphere: 18774

Further analysis, if we believe our alternative to casting a zen sphere or a chi burst will be the combined healing effect of soothing mist + uplift, that is, we are utilizing our most efficient rotation, the opportunity cost will be the combined HPS output of soothing mist and uplift. I get this as 77989 HPS at most, using the same gear and stats as the above but with the following assumptions: 7 uplift targets, no overhealing, refreshing soothing mist every second to speed up the chi generation rate. This is my Maximum output of a soothing mist+uplift combo. More typically, refreshing soothing mist every 3 seconds, with 6 targets yields 46,831 HPS.

Subtracting this opportunity cost from the per cast calculations above and then dividing by the CD will yield a more useful per second value that more accurately reflects the relative value of each ability. The primary issue being that we have some different options for the alternative. I will illustrate with the weaker and more reasonable cost what this may look like.

per second adjusted:
chi wave: 7745
zen sphere 14090
chi burst: 16394

As expected, the opportunity cost is decreasing the value of zen sphere the most because it has the shortest cooldown. Chi Burst easily overtakes Zen Sphere despite assuming a weak alternative. If we expect to use a more aggressive rotation with higher output, the disparity will increase further. Alternatively, if we do not assume infinite mana and we assume there will be a noticeable lack of mana at some point during the fight, the opportunity cost may be negligible and we can assume Zen Sphere is capable of generating more raw healing. The other circumstance in which Zen Sphere may be better is when it can reach more targets. If Zen Sphere can reach more players than chi burst, zen sphere is also better. There may also be unusual damage patterns, such as low but constant pulses that could make Zen Sphere generate less overheal simply because healthbars are staying high. As a trivial case, zen sphere is close enough to chi burst for some purposes that it might be an attractive alternative for players due to being easier to use.

What I expect will be the practical results would be that Chi Burst will become good in 10 mans for AoE, Chi Wave will be worth casting for single-target in 25s, and Zen Sphere will not usually be optimal for either but it will be much more viable than it has been.

smooge · 02/22/13, 12:47 PM

I have not done the math but fistweaving seems to provide slightly better healing in 5.2 via Eminence as long as a certain rotation is used. Does anyone else find this?

Although eminence healing is nerfed by half in 5.2, the damage output of TP on single target and BoK on multi-target effectively makes up for this. Eminence healing from Jab or single target BoK attacks suffers a net loss in Eminence Healing.

From the 5.2 patch notes: Muscle Memory is a new passive ability for Mistweaver Monks. Successful Jabs and Spinning Crane Kicks which damages at least 3 enemies cause Muscle Memory. Muscle Memory causes the Monk's next Tiger Palm or Blackout Kick to deal 150% more damage and restore 2% mana.

Muscle Memory however is what seems to provide the overall boost to Eminence healing now - as long as the rotation is something like J-TP-J-TP for single target or J-J-BoK-J-J-Bok for multi-target, the overall damage and therefore Eminence healing may be higher now. This especially should be the case I think when 3-4 targets are getting hit with BoK.

One question aside from, does theorycrafting support this, is how many targets must be hit by BoK to make it higher DPS/HPS over TP given that it requires an extra Jab?

Another question is whether the mana consumption of fistweaving will really change given mana increase of Jab, but the mana bonus from Muscle Memory - the reason I'm confused on this is that Jab now uses 6% of BASE mana, but returns 2% of mana - it doesnt specify base - therefore maybe it is 2% of total mana pool which could be a net positive return in Mana, using a J-TP-J-TP or J-J-BOK rotation?

One final unrelated question - does auto-attacking happen even when casting something else (attacks or healing)? I ask because I generally am always using some ability however auto-attack still makes up 25% of damage... e.g. when casting soothing mist, are auto-attacks still happening on mobs in melee distance?

Thanks all

nightlily · 02/22/13, 8:48 PM

One final unrelated question - does auto-attacking happen even when casting something else (attacks or healing)? I ask because I generally am always using some ability however auto-attack still makes up 25% of damage... e.g. when casting soothing mist, are auto-attacks still happening on mobs in melee distance?

Auto-Attack is not interrupted by our instant casts, nor is it interrupted by Chi Burst. It is interrupted by all other non-instant spells, such as soothing mist, but the swing timer is *not* reset. I was surprised by the latter part, but I felt I might as well test to make sure this answer was accurate while I was PTR testing and then noticed this. It is entirely possible to time soothing mist between swings, though I can't imagine anyone trying it as it would be very high-maintenance and distract from more important things.

Originally Posted by smooge

I have not done the math but fistweaving seems to provide slightly better healing in 5.2 via Eminence as long as a certain rotation is used. Does anyone else find this?

Although eminence healing is nerfed by half in 5.2, the damage output of TP on single target and BoK on multi-target effectively makes up for this. Eminence healing from Jab or single target BoK attacks suffers a net loss in Eminence Healing.

From the 5.2 patch notes: [i]Muscle Memory is a new passive ability for Mistweaver Monks. Successful Jabs and Spinning Crane Kicks which damages at least 3 enemies cause Muscle Memory. Muscle Memory causes the Monk's next Tiger Palm or Blackout Kick to deal 150% more damage and restore 2% mana.

I still need to work on everything happening to our Eminence healing before I can answer all your questions, but here's some of the math for the essential changes we are seeing:

Eminence = 50%
Crackling Jade Lightning = 200%
Tiger Palm = 200%
Muscle Memory = 250% (100% + 150%)
Blackout Kick = 100% + x(50%) where x is the number of target cleaves, between 0-4, for a maximum of 300%

We can multiply these effects together to get the following:
Jab/Melee = 50%
Crackling Jade Lightning = 200% x 50% = 100%
Tiger Palm = 200% x 50% x 250% = 250%
Blackout Kick (no cleaves) = 250% x 50% x 100% = 125%
Blackout Kick (1 cleave) = 250% x 50% x 150% = 187.5%
Blackout Kick (2 cleaves) = 250% x 50% x 200% = 250%
Blackout Kick (3 cleaves) = 250% x 50% x 250% = 312.5%
Blackout Kick (4 cleaves) = 250% x 50% x 300% = 375%
Xuen = 100% (he still gets 100% Eminence healing)
Rushing Jade Wind = 50%

Other important changes:

There are two new changes to Jab and Muscle Memory:

Jab now costs 24k mana. Muscle Memory now returns 4% mana (12k).

Muscle Memory IS affected by Ascension, so it is probably affected by all mana increasing abilities. The effective mana cost of tiger palm and blackout kick is definitely higher, even with Ascension. 12k without, or 10.2k with. For Blackout Kick, it will be more realistic to use SCK now that Jab is more expensive. This will be a net cost of 30900 mana, or 29100 with ascension. (instead of 18k). From a practical viewpoint, there are alternatives to using SCK or Jab for a second chi to spend on BoK, such as renewing mist and expel harm.

Using Ascension if you were strictly DPS'ing feels much better, especially in single-target where extra chi is not that helpful without the muscle memory buff. I believe the math will work out to support that, given the way muscle memory works. OTOH, I also wouldn't be surprised if they change that.

Spleener · 02/24/13, 2:31 AM

First pass on 5.2 additions to Valen's calc are here, in a seprate branch from the live one for now: MoP Mistweaver Calulations

For those playing the home game with this part, I'm using default everything except raid buffs, maintain tiger power, include auto-attack healing, and muscle memory are all checked. Relevant columns are "hps w/generator" and "hpm w/generator."

Numbers:

-Jab->TP w/ surging at 5 VM stacks goes up very slightly in hps and down very slightly in hpm from 5.1 to 5.2.
-Jabx2->BoK is a net gain in hps from 5.1 at r targets. It's a net gain in hpm at 5(!) targets.
-Jabx2->BoK is more HPS than jab->TP+VM at 3 targets. It's significantly less hpm than jab->TP+VM even at 5 targets.
-SCKx2->BoK beats Jabx2->BoK in hps at 2-3 friendly targets' worth of healing and in hpm at 1 friendly target worth of healing.
-Jabx2->Uplift hpm, of course, has gone down dramatically. Full comparison, with jab->uplift assuming SZ:

5.1 jabx2->uplift: 20.82 hpm, 112k hps
5.2 jabx2->uplift: 7.35hpm, 99k hps
Soothing->uplift: 33.59 hpm, 64k hps
SCK(1)->uplift: 9.06 hpm, 64k hps
SCK(3)->uplift: 13.14 hpm, 92k hps
SCK(6)-> uplift: 19.27 hpm, 136k hps
CJL->uplift: 21.33 hpm, 76k hps
Surging->uplift: 10.25 hpm, 130k hps

Nightlily: While Ascension does increase the mana return from muscle memory, you should also keep in mind that higher mana costs on Jab increases the effective benefit from 1 free chi and thus the mp5 of power strikes and chi brew.

Simming out the 30s cycle that grants the maximum realistic MM returns:

-1 BoK
-3 ReM
-2 expel harm
-2 chi wave
-2 mana tea
-1 TFT uplift
-10 jab
-9 TP

So, 10 MM procs (40% of max mana) over 30s. To get this into mp5 terms that's 6.666(repeating, of course)% of max mana per 5s, which is 20k mp5. Ascension increases this by 15%, or 3000 mp5, which you add to the ~1500 mp5 it's worth now (varying based on fight length and tea usage) to get 4500 mp5. Power Strikes, on the other hand, is a free jab every 20s, which is 24k / 4 = 6000 mp5.

MM certainly makes Ascension less terrible than it is in 5.1, but PS still beats it in terms of raw regen power.

(Side note: I just realized that sim needs a VM'd surging in there, but fuck it, the numbers are prettier this way.)

Spleener · 02/24/13, 2:45 AM

Continuing from the previous post, though- when evaluating revitalizing vs. ember primal diamond:

432 spirit is 243 mp5.
To be lazy, 2% of max mana is 13.333(repeating, of course)% of 15% of max mana, and thus Ember gives' 13.333% of Ascension's ~4500 mp5 benefit, which is ~600 mp5.

And while we're at it, by this same math the gnome racial is 1500 mp5.

nightlily · 02/24/13, 5:44 AM

Originally Posted by Spleener

First pass on 5.2 additions to Valen's calc are here, in a seprate branch from the live one for now: MoP Mistweaver Calulations
Numbers:

-Jab->TP w/ surging at 5 VM stacks goes up very slightly in hps and down very slightly in hpm from 5.1 to 5.2.
-Jabx2->BoK is a net gain in hps from 5.1 at r targets. It's a net gain in hpm at 5(!) targets.
-Jabx2->BoK is more HPS than jab->TP+VM at 3 targets. It's significantly less hpm than jab->TP+VM even at 5 targets.
-SCKx2->BoK beats Jabx2->BoK in hps at 2-3 friendly targets' worth of healing and in hpm at 1 friendly target worth of healing.
-Jabx2->Uplift hpm, of course, has gone down dramatically. Full comparison, with jab->uplift assuming SZ:

I am getting the same results here (except on whether to BoK with 3 targets, which I haven't mathed out yet.)

Nightlily: While Ascension does increase the mana return from muscle memory, you should also keep in mind that higher mana costs on Jab increases the effective benefit from 1 free chi and thus the mp5 of power strikes and chi brew.

I don't feel comfortable equating a free chi with a free Jab. The reason for this is quite simple: If we are trying to Jab, it is not because we want Chi, it's because we want MM - so free chi cannot replace Jab, nor will we want to use Jab when something cheaper would suffice.

What I said was accurate: Ascension provides more utility now than it used to, since it makes eminence healing more efficient. If your goal is to DPS consistently without mana issues, Ascension certainly will be worth taking over power strikes, just because PS cannot improve our DPS. If we get extra chi while we're doing a melee rotation, it's going to be necessary to interrupt that melee to heal if we're using TP since we don't have MM to make TP effective. Although if we do AoE instead of single-target we can use the free chi on BoK, which should be a net increase (in damage and healing).

From a healing standpoint, Ascension it is still the weakest choice. It does not increase our throughput and -whether we are doing dps or not- it will be less efficient than the alternatives. That's assuming we want to uplift, though.

Spleener · 02/25/13, 9:21 AM

So for some reason the way I was coding it was causing blackout cleave to report less damage/healing than it should. Fixed here, along with a couple of other improvements: MoP Mistweaver Calulations

krazyito65 · 02/25/13, 2:50 PM

Will going for the next haste break point for ReM be worth it with our 2-set in 5.2?

dracjin · 02/26/13, 4:05 AM

After some testing with our "new" soothing mist mechanic, i noticed at a 90% rate an income of exactly 3 chi over a full duration. I got never less than 2 chi and with asc, up to 5 chi per sm cast (more often 5 than 2).

Zipia · 02/26/13, 1:15 PM

Originally Posted by dracjin

After some testing with our "new" soothing mist mechanic, i noticed at a 90% rate an income of exactly 3 chi over a full duration. I got never less than 2 chi and with asc, up to 5 chi per sm cast (more often 5 than 2).

Here's what GC said:

Monk
- We'd rather you try out Soothing Mist in a combat situation rather than try to predict how it will feel, but the chi proc chance is 15% plus 15% for each tick that it doesn't proc. The chance to generate chi increases with each tick that doesn't proc and resets when it does.

PTR Class and Set Bonus Issues, Part III - Forums - World of Warcraft

Spleener · 02/26/13, 4:12 PM

Could someone who's better at math than I am figure out what the average chi proc chance per tick/cast comes out to with the new soothing so I can put that in the calculator?

Sasazuka · 02/26/13, 5:56 PM

EDIT: I was under the impression that Chi generation with SM is 35% but that was hotfixed to 30% everything below was done with 35%.

I don't know my probability as well as I should so I can't provide the exact math. However, I can code so I've modified the code provided by Daellia here to calculate the average Chi generated.

Here's the bit I'm using to determine if Chi has been generated or not so someone can check to insure I didn't implement the probability incorrectly:

bool generateChi( bool useNewModel, bool resetProbability ) {
  static int probability_modifier = 0;

  if ( resetProbability ) {
    probability_modifier = 0;
    return false;
  }

  if ( useNewModel ) {
    if ( rand() % 100 + 1 < ( G_CHI_PROBABILITY + probability_modifier ) ) {
      probability_modifier = 0;
      return true;
    } else {
      probability_modifier += G_CHI_PROBABILITY_MOD;
    }
  } else {
    return ( rand() % 100 + 1 < G_CHI_PROBABILITY_OLD );
  }

 return false;
}

G_CHI_PROBABILITY and G_CHI_PROBABILITY_MOD are both 15 and G_CHI_PROBABILITY_OLD is 35.

Using the old model, using G_TIME = 300, average Chi generated is 102 (using 35% per tick) and using the new model Chi generated is 100 (both values are rounded to nearest integer). Hopefully this can at least provide some insight on how the newer model compares in term of *total* Chi generated. I'm going to try to work in calculating average time to X Chi (X likely being 3)

The entire code that I've modified is available here.
NOTE: See bottom of this post for updated code - this version is wrong.

EDIT: Tweaking code slightly I've found that the average time to 3 Chi is approximately 8 (rounded). The main difference is that there were times in the old model where it took up to 50+ ticks to generate 3 Chi whereas in the new model it took around 18 ticks (I believe the absolute worst situation is 21 ticks).

EDIT: If you are looking at the code, it's best to think of any reference to time as ticks. The code doesn't model GCD and really has no concept of time. Therefore you should take this as an approximation.

EDIT: Fixed the numbers, there was a bug with probability calculations causing a small error. Code here.